ECM's - some questions on technicality

[mars25]

It is clear that Charlie gets ECM accomplished by disabling seeder cards.

How it gets that accomplished is only known to Charlie, however there are certain things that could be ruled out as most unlikely and others quite likely.

Most Unlikely:

i) if all seeder card receivers are connected by telephone lines, then by Charlie subscribing to that IKS service, know the card id which could be embedded in the control word but not used, correlate card id to telephone number and disable that seeder card.

above is most unlikely since it may no longer be the case charlie receivers need to be connected by telephone lines, since many may who have sub may not have land lines but only cell phones.

Very likely:

i) Charlie makes a donation to IKS provider and is able to get the card id which is embedded in the keys or control word the IKS provider sends to decrypt the channel. Then it is able to send the code that disables only the card/s with particular id's which is embedded in the broadcast signal.

Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.

b) at least for IPTV which IKS providers support many are from satellite, however each supported channel should have a dedicated receiver or seeder card, of course in one sub can have 3 or 4 or even more receivers/cards to support multiple channels. However one supported channel should have one dedicated receiver.

ECM's - IPTV's, Private/Restricted IKS server and Open IKS server

IPTV's Charlie does know that its cards are being used for IPTV, but cannot identify the seeder cards, since only the decrypted picture is sent back, hence Charlie cannot cause ECM's for IPTV

Private/Restricted IKS server There were some IKS providers whom one could subscribe only by reference. Hypothetically if say 50 friends get together and host a IKS server, can Charlie cause ECM for that cards that support the server? Most likely not

Open IKS server NFPS, Rocket bet Charlie makes a donation and gets the card ID no question and causes ECM

What's the problem for removing card ID's from control words

IKS providers do provide control words to decrypt channels from their servers, each subscriber watching that channel obviously receives the same seeder card id as well along with the control word from the IKS server.

It is unlikely that card id and control words are encrypted, if that is the case then it would have been impossible to view the picture.

What is the problem by having two or more seeder cards feeding the server and separating the card id from control words, then send a dummy card id along with the control words. Most likely the card ID's should be in a fixed location along with the control words?

[dishuser]

or maybe card isn't in receiver when an emm is sent
new word ford for the day...emm...lol

[The Noof]

or maybe card isn't in receiver when an emm is sent
new word ford for the day...emm...lol

Might that mean "entitlement management message" ?lol

[dishuser]

Might that mean "entitlement management message" ?lol

shhhh
don't give away old info

[The Noof]

shhhh
don't give away old info

...like update status word...lol

[dishuser]

...like update status word...lol

ancient chinese secret...lol

[jets]

the cards are not in the receiver (like I once thought LOL).

16 seconds.

[mars25]

the cards are not in the receiver (like I once thought LOL).

16 seconds.

Please get serious, like the following thread discussion.

http://www.satfix.to/showthread.php?...923#post933923

Cards are certainly connected to the receiver even if they are physically outside right?

Do the sub receivers still need to be connected by land line phone line?

[Anubis]

Please get serious, like the following thread discussion.

http://www.satfix.to/showthread.php?...923#post933923

Cards are certainly connected to the receiver even if they are physically outside right?

Do the sub receivers still need to be connected by land line phone line?

Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

[mars25]

Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

You are right that the OP is not NFPS specific but applies to all IKS servers, there is no general IKS server section hence I posted in the largest IKS server section. BTW the thread I posted link is in the other paid IKS server section.

After I posted I noticed that thread in google search, which I had missed earlier in this site search. My post would have been much shorter if I had read that thread before posting.

[jedi]

It is clear that Charlie gets ECM accomplished by disabling seeder cards.

How it gets that accomplished is only known to Charlie, however there are certain things that could be ruled out as most unlikely and others quite likely.

Most Unlikely:

i) if all seeder card receivers are connected by telephone lines, then by Charlie subscribing to that IKS service, know the card id which could be embedded in the control word but not used, correlate card id to telephone number and disable that seeder card.

above is most unlikely since it may no longer be the case charlie receivers need to be connected by telephone lines, since many may who have sub may not have land lines but only cell phones.

Seeder cards are not connected by phone lines. If Charlie knows the card id it doesn't need the phone number - it just goes to it's database to see whose account has that card ID and shuts down all receivers and cards on that account.

Very likely:

i) Charlie makes a donation to IKS provider and is able to get the card id which is embedded in the keys or control word the IKS provider sends to decrypt the channel. Then it is able to send the code that disables only the card/s with particular id's which is embedded in the broadcast signal.

Some people think that Charlie is somehow finding the Card ID. At one time end users were reporting something flashing on their screens in the top right corner the night before a card hit - some believed it was flashing the card ID on the screen and only Charlie could read it. Charlie could tune to different channels find all the seeder cards and shut them down the next day.

I don't think they are finding the card IDs.
I could see them subscribing to the major IKS services like NFPS/Rocket, etc - but what about the small mom & pop IKS services that have 20 or 30 friends using the service - how were they knocking out those cards?
Also if they knew the card IDs why didn't they knock out every receiver and card on that account? Most good seeders had backup cards ready to go as soon as they got hit - so they would pull out the old card and put in the new card - and it would be good until the next ECM card kill.

[QUOTE=mars25;1195298]Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.[QUOTE]
CWs change every 15 seconds and one card can provide control words for about 18 to 20 channels - so if you had 20 cards you could do about 300 channels.

b) at least for IPTV which IKS providers support many are from satellite, however each supported channel should have a dedicated receiver or seeder card, of course in one sub can have 3 or 4 or even more receivers/cards to support multiple channels. However one supported channel should have one dedicated receiver.

That is good in theory - but quite expensive. You can buy a DVB encoder that works much like IKS and can grab about 20 channels from one transponder using one card. If you use one receiver and card per channels that is a lot of money to pay for subscribed cards/receivers plus the monthly subscription plus the encoders. Some of the larger IPTV services with the big bucks are starting to do that.

ECM's - IPTV's, Private/Restricted IKS server and Open IKS server

IPTV's Charlie does know that its cards are being used for IPTV, but cannot identify the seeder cards, since only the decrypted picture is sent back, hence Charlie cannot cause ECM's for IPTV

If the cards are in the original receiver they may not be able to kill the cards with an ECM - but if they find the card or receiver ID they can shut down all receivers/cards on that account.
What if they broadcast the card or receiver ID on the screen every hour or so - then IPTV would have to find a way to block that signal. It gets to be a bit of a cat and mouse game. Endless possibilites of what the Providers could do and what the hackers could try to do to stop them.

Private/Restricted IKS server There were some IKS providers whom one could subscribe only by reference. Hypothetically if say 50 friends get together and host a IKS server, can Charlie cause ECM for that cards that support the server? Most likely not

Yes they can and yes they did. I know of a card server that only sent the control words to one DreamBox as a test to see if it would get hit and it did get hit.
For a while you could grab 4 or 5 local channels from a card and not get hit while cards doing other channels would get hit.

Open IKS server NFPS, Rocket bet Charlie makes a donation and gets the card ID no question and causes ECM

What's the problem for removing card ID's from control words

IKS providers do provide control words to decrypt channels from their servers, each subscriber watching that channel obviously receives the same seeder card id as well along with the control word from the IKS server.

It is unlikely that card id and control words are encrypted, if that is the case then it would have been impossible to view the picture.

The control word is encrypted and then decrypted by your IKS receiver when it is received - it wouldn't matter to Charlie if it was encrypted or not - they can always decrypt anthing they send.
As I mentioned above I don't believe Charlie is finding and using the Card or receiver ID to shut down IKS - I believe they are somehow marking the card if it is not in a receiver and then Killing it with an ECM.
If a card was ever out of a receiver and used in a card feeder even for a very short time - it was somehow marked for destruction. You could put the card back in its original receiver and it would still get hit during the next card killing ECM.

What is the problem by having two or more seeder cards feeding the server and separating the card id from control words, then send a dummy card id along with the control words. Most likely the card ID's should be in a fixed location along with the control words?

It wouldn't help hide the ID if they were marking the card and not using the ID to kill it.

[jedi]

Raton's latest card server software would process all ECMs and all EMMs while it was out of a receiver and in a card server if that is what you wanted - it was an option in the config file.
It was supposed to emulate the card being in a real receiver - but that is pretty much impossible to make it perfect emulator.
So you could set it to process all tier EMM updates and subscription EMM updates - that way you didn't have to pull out the card to update the expiry every 45 days - or if you changed the subscription to add say a PPV movie - you didn't have to pull the card out of the server to accept the EMM.
You could also set it to process all internal card software EMM updates - so if they updated their cards it would do it while in the card server.
Charlie occasionally sent an EMM to update the keys - you could configure the rqcs server software to process the EMM key updates while in the server.

Some people pulled their cards and put them back in the original receiver to take the EMM updates - but the option was available to do it all in the card server.

[Condor]

Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

..Along with that is when you C/P something it's "good etiquette" to give credit to the OP.. Lol..

[mars25]

..Along with that is when you C/P something it's "good etiquette" to give credit to the OP.. Lol..

Is it a general statement or implication there was a C/P in my OP. If it is an accusation or implication of a C/P in my OP then please identify the source.

[mars25]

Seeder cards are not connected by phone lines. If Charlie knows the card id it doesn't need the phone number - it just goes to it's database to see whose account has that card ID and shuts down all receivers and cards on that account.

How does it know the card ID since there is no response to the broadcast signal? It is a one way broadcast communication

Some people think that Charlie is somehow finding the Card ID. At one time end users were reporting something flashing on their screens in the top right corner the night before a card hit - some believed it was flashing the card ID on the screen and only Charlie could read it. Charlie could tune to different channels find all the seeder cards and shut them down the next day.

I don't think they are finding the card IDs.
I could see them subscribing to the major IKS services like NFPS/Rocket, etc - but what about the small mom & pop IKS services that have 20 or 30 friends using the service - how were they knocking out those cards?
Also if they knew the card IDs why didn't they knock out every receiver and card on that account? Most good seeders had backup cards ready to go as soon as they got hit - so they would pull out the old card and put in the new card - and it would be good until the next ECM card kill.

If there are multiple cards on the account, some cards may not be on the receiver at the time they broadcast killer codes, then it is not impacted. However not sure for a) how many cards at a time they broadcast killer codes b) how long they do broadcast c) broadcast in single channel identified for that card or in multiple channel. It is an assumption that seeders have all cards in the same account, they are smarter than that -most likely in different accounts

[QUOTE=jedi;1195407]
[QUOTE=mars25;1195298]Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.

CWs change every 15 seconds and one card can provide control words for about 18 to 20 channels - so if you had 20 cards you could do about 300 channels.


That is good in theory - but quite expensive. You can buy a DVB encoder that works much like IKS and can grab about 20 channels from one transponder using one card. If you use one receiver and card per channels that is a lot of money to pay for subscribed cards/receivers plus the monthly subscription plus the encoders. Some of the larger IPTV services with the big bucks are starting to do that.


If the cards are in the original receiver they may not be able to kill the cards with an ECM - but if they find the card or receiver ID they can shut down all receivers/cards on that account.
What if they broadcast the card or receiver ID on the screen every hour or so - then IPTV would have to find a way to block that signal. It gets to be a bit of a cat and mouse game. Endless possibilites of what the Providers could do and what the hackers could try to do to stop them.


Yes they can and yes they did. I know of a card server that only sent the control words to one DreamBox as a test to see if it would get hit and it did get hit.
For a while you could grab 4 or 5 local channels from a card and not get hit while cards doing other channels would get hit.



The control word is encrypted and then decrypted by your IKS receiver when it is received - it wouldn't matter to Charlie if it was encrypted or not - they can always decrypt anthing they send.
As I mentioned above I don't believe Charlie is finding and using the Card or receiver ID to shut down IKS - I believe they are somehow marking the card if it is not in a receiver and then Killing it with an ECM.
If a card was ever out of a receiver and used in a card feeder even for a very short time - it was somehow marked for destruction. You could put the card back in its original receiver and it would still get hit during the next card killing ECM.

It wouldn't help hide the ID if they were marking the card and not using the ID to kill it.

If they broadcast card ID's, they will have to suppress the display for every receiver except for that particular card ID, which means they know the card ID, they kill it instead.

There is no backward communication to track frequent channel changes. It is a total misconception, unless charlie uses a reverse communication over wireless networks, similar to home security monitoring which uses wireless either as primary or back up in case a thief has cut your phone lines.