Coax cable question

[ak.89]

Hi I want to make a 3rd receiver connection. I am going to be buying a coax cable and this is my first time doing a receiver setup my self. So what kind of coax cable i should buy. the distance from switch to receiver will be under 75 feet. Also how can i make a coax cable connecter connection? can i do it without special tools. Thanks guys

[FTA]

just go buy a pre made length of cable at 100 or so feet RG6 is what you want radio shack etc will have it

[fonger]

RG6 coax cable with compression heads
http://www.homehardware.ca/products/300/35732161.jpg

[ak.89]

hi i want to get ready mate but i don't want to leave extra wiring on the roof or within house thats why i am going to buy the tool for stripping the cable and compressing the connectors. Also how...

[ignored ant]

Get a "Solid Copper Core" Coax Cable

[ak.89]

RG6 coax cable with compression heads
http://www.homehardware.ca/products/300/35732161.jpg


so i don't need a compression tool for these connecters? how will they secure onto the cable if i don't press them with the tool .thanks

[Terryl]

What is the outside of your house made of? <br />
<br />
If it's wood then a standard bell drill bit will work, but if there is insulation between the walls you have to be careful not to snag it and bunch it up...

[dishuser]

so i don't need a compression tool for these connecters? how will they secure onto the cable if i don't press them with the tool .thanks
you need a tool
as for "hole" make it size of cable and put connector on after feeding cable

[ak.89]

ok how is this for the cable, should i buy something else or this will be good enough?

hxxp://www.ebay.ca/itm/100-FT-RG-6-SATELLITE-COAX-CABLE-RG6-COAXIAL-CONNECTOR-/320690343141?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item4aaaa24ce5

also how is this for tool kit with connectors.

hxxp://www.ebay.ca/itm/COMPRESSION-F-CONNECTOR-TOOL-CABLE-STRIPPER-RG6-FITTING-/320526788645?pt=US_Tools_Crimpers_Strippers&hash=item4aa0e2a825

also my house is not wood it has those pannels, i don't know what you call them but is like long piece of pannels attached. but the hole i don't know is the hardest for me to do.

[Terryl]

so i don't need a compression tool for these connecters? how will they secure onto the cable if i don't press them with the tool .thanks

Yes you need the compression tool.

[Terryl]

I wouldn't buy coax from E-bay, you don't know what you will get.

You need coax rated to 2.5 GHz or better, it will be marked on the coax.

You might have hardy plank on your walls, it will drill but the drill bit will get dull fast as it is made out of concrete, be sure to dill the hole about 6' down from any AC wall plug, this will keep you away from the house electrical, and be sure your between the studs.

Here is a trick I do, I drill from the inside, and only through the sheetrock, then push the drill bit with out the drill on, till it hits the outside wall, then wiggle it around a bit to loosen up the insulation, once it feels free, then drill the final hole through the outside wall, on the outside you will have to use a bigger drill bit, one that will let the coax wall feed through fit nice and tight.

[Terryl]

Also you have to be careful drilling through the outside wall, if you snag and ball up on the insulation you may never get the drill bit out.

[ak.89]

i think i should do the hole from inside to outside? because the guy who did the installation for us both receiver connection he did the drilling from inside to outside.

[Terryl]

Yes from the inside to the outside, with a 3/8" bell bit, it will be 12" long, (or more) be sure to check the outside for any obstructions first.

[Terryl]

You will also need one of these drill bits, it makes things a bit easier.


http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/dewalt/products/DW1770.asp?cagpspn=pla&gclid=COTckfjdxLECFQSFhwodPxoAag

I strip about 8" of the coax shield off, and use the center conductor to go through the little hole in the drill bit,(that's what its for) then use the drill bit to pull the coax through the wall.

[ak.89]

also when i pass the cable from the hole do i need something to pull the wire in side the room from outside? because it might get stuck in inside. is there a special thing for that.

[Terryl]

The bell hangers drill bit has a small hole in its tip, this is were the coax center conductor goes through, you pass about 3" of center conductor through this hole and twist it back upon it's self, then you pull the coax back through the wall with the drill bit.

You can tape the coax up a tad bit to keep it from snagging the insulation. (don't use too much tape or it wont fit through the wall)

If you use the coax wall bushing you will have to drill the hole on the outside wall larger to fit the bushing, then push the long drill bit back through the wall from the inside.


Slip the bushing down over the coax before you attach it to the bell hangers bit, slide it several feet down the coax, then pull the coax through the wall, seat the bushing with a little sealer around it to keep the water out.

A drip loop in the coax on the outside would help also.

[TurboPirate]

What is the outside of your house made of?

If it's wood then a standard bell drill bit will work, but if there is insulation between the walls you have to be careful not to snag it and bunch it up on the drill bit, you also should use a wall through .

I like to come in through a foundation vent, then up through the floor from under the house.

And you can get the tools you need to make your own connectors up, most can be found at lowes or home depot, the connectors should be the correct ones for what ever coax you get, there are 2 sizes, one for plain RG-6, and one for RG-6 quad, the ones for the plain RG-6 wont fit the quad coax, and the ones for the quad coax will be too loose on the plain RG-6, you will get water leaks.

This is the tool needed to strip the coax,
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=111075-12704-45-520&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=1002727&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1 you can get it at lowes or HD.

This is the coax connector crimp tool,
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=231102-12704-33-633&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3369464&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=rel&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

And if you go through the wall you should use one of these,
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103565

Exactly what I was gonna suggest you, Terryl just gave you a full detail, he is the guru at this.......Excellent job

[simbatran]

My question is about the max length of the RG6 (quad shield). Please bear with me, it is a bit lengthy so you have all the info needed to respond.

I have a Satzen Z500 and a SV8000 HD. The box themselves have no issue, it is the length + connectors are.

1) The SV8000 HD has no issue, picture and sound is stunning. The total length of the standard RG6 from the DP34 switch to the SV8000 is 50ft with no connector in between.

2) The place where I place my Satzen Z500 is the problem. The RG6 quad shield is 50 ft from the same DP34 to a connector right outside the house. From this connector, a RG6 cable runs inside the wall to a 1x4 splitter in my closet, adding about another 75 ft, more or less, the cable from the outside to the splitter and the cables from the splitter to the rooms (about another 75 ft) were installed by the builder. If I place my Satzen in the closet, right before the 1x4 splitter, its Output to the 1x4 splitter and then to the rooms, I have Signal is 80% and quality is 95%, picture is fine but audio is quite weak, I have to turn the Satzen volume to max and the TV volume quite high to hear it, but that results in somewhat annoying hissing. Adding a in-line amplifier (+20db) does not seem to improve the sound, although the picture seems a bit better.

Satzen is not an HD box, now I want an HD box, but that means I have to keep the box at the TV in the room and not before the 1x4 splitter as in the case of the Satzen because there is no HD coax output from any HD box as much as I can tell.

However, if I keep the box at the TV, i.e. after about 75 ft from the 1x4 splitter, the signal is virtually zero. No signal ! even with the inline amplifier installed before the 1x4 splitter.

The signal probably lost significantly from the 1x4 splitter to the rooms.

I have tried both standard RG6 and quad shield RG6 cables in every place except for those inside the walls which nothing I can do about, no difference whatsoever. I even tried different connectors, no difference, the same 80% signal + 95 quality when the box is before the 1x4 splitter and zero signal if the box is in the room, 75 ft away from the 1x4 splitter.

At first, I thought the Satzen has issue, but actually, it does not, because if I switch the SV8000 HD with the Satzen then the Satzen works fine and the problem is now on the SV8000 HD.

My question is:

If I replace this 1x4 splitter (has no power supply, installed by the builder) with one that has power supply, would that guarantee signal will be maintained after 75 ft away from the 1x4 splitter ? Any product out there that works great for this purpose ? I don't mind spending $50 or so, but I hate to see it wasted and the problem remains.

Note: I even replaced the 1x4 splitter with a connector to go to just 1 TV, same issue: no signal at all.

In summary:

From DP34 placed just 3 ft from the dish, to the 1st connector outside the house: 50 ft
From the 1st connector to the 1x4 splitter in closet: 75 ft <<=== No power supply.
From the 1x4 splitter to the TV (where I want to place the box): 75 ft.

[simbatran]

Forgot to say Thanks in advance.

[satchick]

The problem is the 1x4 splitter. If it was builder installed, I can almost guarantee that it's a cable splitter and will not work with satellite systems. You can't use any kind of regular 1-to-many splitters with satellite equipment.

What you need to do is run a cable from each receiver to the SW44. You do have quite a long run as well, you should really look at upgrading to Dishpro equipment as it will handle longer cable lengths than the old legacy stuff.

[simbatran]

The problem is the 1x4 splitter. If it was builder installed, I can almost guarantee that it's a cable splitter and will not work with satellite systems. You can't use any kind of regular 1-to-many splitters with satellite equipment.

What you need to do is run a cable from each receiver to the SW44. You do have quite a long run as well, you should really look at upgrading to Dishpro equipment as it will handle longer cable lengths than the old legacy stuff.

I sure can take your advice and replace that 1x4, but that is NOT the only problem. More significant signal loss happens over the long cables from the closet to the rooms.

Everything outside is Dish Pro Equipment (Dish Pro Plus, Dish Pro LNBs, Dish Pro DP34, 3 SATs 119, 110 and 129).

When I replaced the 1x4 splitter with just a connector, to make it just a single cable run to the box in the room, still no signal. So the main problem is signal has been weakened significantly over the long cable run, particularly from the central box in the closet to the rooms.

I guess I would need a really good signal amplified splitter that needs external power, but I don't know of anything that is known to work really well in this scenario of mine.

[satchick]

Do all of your inside runs originate at that splitter? If so, replace it with the DP34. You will have to run two additional cables from the dish into that closet for this to work.

Do you have a Dish receiver, active or not, connected to this system? If not, most FTA receivers can't supply enough power to run Dishpro equipment properly. The voltage drop over that long run of cable might be too much, considering FTA receivers don't supply enough voltage to begin with. If you don't have a DN receiver, you may need to install a powered switch (DP44). I'm not sure if you can use just the power inserter with a DP34 and have it work, maybe someone else here knows?

[simbatran]

Do all of your inside runs originate at that splitter? If so, replace it with the DP34. You will have to run two additional cables from the dish into that closet for this to work.

Do you have a Dish receiver, active or not, connected to this system? If not, most FTA receivers can't supply enough power to run Dishpro equipment properly. The voltage drop over that long run of cable might be too much, considering FTA receivers don't supply enough voltage to begin with. If you don't have a DN receiver, you may need to install a powered switch (DP44). I'm not sure if you can use just the power inserter with a DP34 and have it work, maybe someone else here knows?

There are 2 RG6 comjng off the DP34, 1 goes to the SV8000 HD upstairs, the cable length is 50ft and thjs works great. The 2nd RG6 runs to the splitter then to the rooms, DP34 --> 50ft --> connector --> 75ft --> 1x4 splitter --> 75ft --> room. I can consider replacing the DP34 with a DPP44 and run a power inserter IF this in deed solves the signal loss issue with the long cable run downstairs, but I prefer a simpler solution, like perhaps an amplified splitter if there is one that works.

And there is no Dish receiver.

[Terryl]

You can't use any type of splitter, you will have to use a DPP44 switch and power inserter, that is the only way to compensate for the cable loss.

You will need 3 coaxes, one from each LNB (or the 3 LNB outputs) to the DPP44 switch LNB inputs, then the #1 port on the DPP44 switch will go to the first receiver, this is also where the DPP 44 power inserter will be located, a second coax then needs to be run from the #2 switch output to the second receiver.

Also if the coax was originally installed for CATV or off air TV use, then you must check to see if it is rated to 2.5 GHz or swept to 3 GHz, if it is only for CATV or off air then it could be only rated to 900 MHz or 1 GHz, if this is so then that is why you have too much signal loss.

The DPP type LNBs need the higher frequency rated coax to work correctly.

And any type of connector will add another 3 dB of signal loss to the system, this does not sound like much but it is equal to 1/2 of your RF signal voltage, so you need one solid run of coax, from the switch to the receivers.

[simbatran]

You can't use any type of splitter, you will have to use a DPP44 switch and power inserter, that is the only way to compensate for the cable loss.

You will need 3 coaxes, one from each LNB (or the 3 LNB outputs) to the DPP44 switch LNB inputs, then the #1 port on the DPP44 switch will go to the first receiver, this is also where the DPP 44 power inserter will be located, a second coax then needs to be run from the #2 switch output to the second receiver.

Also if the coax was originally installed for CATV or off air TV use, then you must check to see if it is rated to 2.5 GHz or swept to 3 GHz, if it is only for CATV or off air then it could be only rated to 900 MHz or 1 GHz, if this is so then that is why you have too much signal loss.

The DPP type LNBs need the higher frequency rated coax to work correctly.

And any type of connector will add another 3 dB of signal loss to the system, this does not sound like much but it is equal to 1/2 of your RF signal voltage, so you need one solid run of coax, from the switch to the receivers.

Can I simply replace the current non-power-pass 1x4 splitter with a proper power-pass splitter and power inserter ? If this works, then it is the cheapeast and simplest solution. If not, then I will follow your advice, replace the DP34 with a DPP44 switch and run another cable to upstairs where the SV8000 HD served as the 1st receiver and with power inserter. I cannot add any more cable downstairs, the cables from outside to the 1x4 splitter in the closet and from the splitter to the rooms were installed by the builder and have to go through the walls, lengthy and nothing I can do about it.

[satchick]

You can't use any kind of splitter with satellite systems.


DP34 --> 50ft --> connector --> 75ft -->
What purpose does the connector serve? This run should be replaced with a single length of cable, each connector you add cuts your signal in half, and adds another failure point.

[Terryl]

Can I simply replace the current non-power-pass 1x4 splitter with a proper power-pass splitter and power inserter ? If this works, then it is the cheapeast and simplest solution. If not, then I will follow your advice, replace the DP34 with a DPP44 switch and run another cable to upstairs where the SV8000 HD served as the 1st receiver and with power inserter. I cannot add any more cable downstairs, the cables from outside to the 1x4 splitter in the closet and from the splitter to the rooms were installed by the builder and have to go through the walls, lengthy and nothing I can do about it.


No, you can't use any type of RF splitter with a satellites system. It has to be an approved DP switch, that can be used with the DP LNB's, the DP34 is not an externally DC powered switch, it requiers a DC voltage from the receiver to run it, with your long run of coax to the switch (and not knowing the type of coax) the DC power loss is too high to run that switch.

The DPP44 switch has an external DC power inserter to run it, this DC power insetrer runs at 20 volts DC at around 1 amp. it will power any Dish LNB up to 150 feet from it.

I also highly advise you to look at the coax being used, it should have some markings on it specifying what it can be used for, some coax can not be used for DP type LNB's, if it's marked for CATV, then it wont work with DP type LNB's.

DP type LNB's need coax rated to 2.5 GHz, and on long runs the coax should have a pure copper center conductor, you can check you coax by using a small magnet, if it sticks to the center conductor is copper plated steel, that type has a higher DC voltage drop then the pure copper type.

The CPS type coax will not work that good for long runs of coax to the receivers from the switch, nor from the LNB(s) to the switch.

[simbatran]

After all this, I probably have no other choice but reverting to a DPP44, a power insertere and another cable run through the attic upstairs and then to the room where the SV 8000 HD is placed, that is the only place I am able to do it myself. The cables downstairs inside the wall, somewhere around 100-125 ft are 'untouchable', nothing I can do about it and that's where the trouble is. All cables are RG6, I checked although I cannot really tell the quality of them. I also have replaced the old 1x4 splitter that shows up to 1000Mhz with a new one that indicates up to 2.5 Mhz, but nothing improves.

[simbatran]

You can't use any kind of splitter with satellite systems.


What purpose does the connector serve? This run should be replaced with a single length of cable, each connector you add cuts your signal in half, and adds another failure point.

The builder installed the cable from the outside to the 1x4 splitter in the closet, the cable runs inside walls, it was intended for cableTV in the first place, however they are in deed RG6, I checked. That connector actually is also a ground block, connected to the ground of the main electrical box. It is already like that, the cable starts right there, so I need that connector to extend the cable to the DP34. Have no choice. I am curious about the Dish Receiver you mentioned to be able to supply enough power to the DP34. I can find a Dish Receiver 381 (HD capable) locally for just $30, will that work ?

http://www.prosatellitesupply.com/images/ground_block_3GHz_single.jpg

This is my new 1x4 splitter, but it does not improve anything over the old OnQ 1x4 (1000 Mhz) splitter.

http://images.frys.com/art/product/big_shots/6832776.big.jpg

I intend to keep the Satzen and connect like this, and improve the situation with the Satzen.

DP34 1st output --> SV8000 HD --> TV
DP34 2nd output --> Satzen --> 1x4 (2500 Mhz, power passing all ports) --> TVs

[satchick]

As Terryl and I have both mentioned, you can't use splitters of any kind with satellite systems.

[simbatran]

As Terryl and I have both mentioned, you can't use splitters of any kind with satellite systems.
I have the splitter placed AFTER the receiver.

3 TVs in 3 differrent rooms connected to 3 outputs of the 1x4 splitter (both the old OnQ-1000 Mhz and the new Phillips 2500 Mhz), all work, even when all turned on at the same time, video is fine, but audio quality is weak, which I am trying to improve. Of course all 3 TV show the same channel.

[Terryl]

OK, so that means your using the RF output (TV channel 3 or 4) on one receiver to run the other TV set's right?

Or are you using the IF or loop output?

If your using the RF output then it may be too weak to run 3 TV's through a 12 dB splitter, (3 dB x 4 = 12 dB loss per output) that may be the problem with your audio, you should use an amplified RF splitter.

If you could do a block diagram of your setup it would help quite a bit.

And I don't care what the frequency range or type of RF splitter it is, you can't run 3 FTA receivers independently from the loop output of one receiver, you need a satellite switch to do that.

[simbatran]

Well, I can't blame myself for not trying. After buying a DPP44 which includes a power inserter, I connect the power inserter to port 1 as expected, all connection is done right, I am absolutely sure, what's there not to understand. Tried both the long cable (Satzen Z500) in port 1 and short cable (to SV8K) in port 1, I got the same signal strength on the long cable just like before, no improvement whatsoever. Video is OK, audio is quite weak.

My conclusion: with 200 ft cable, 2 connectors in the middle and a non-Dish receiver, this is the best I can get.

No loop out connection, whatsoever. Just a simple connection:

DP34 Port 1 (50 ft) -> SV8K (Fine)
DP34 Port 2 (200 ft) -> Satzen Z500 -> 1x4 splitter -> 4 TV (Video fine, Audio weak).

With a signal amp placed just before the Satzen, signal improves a bit but not that much. Audio is still poor. I even tried the power inserter with the DP34 in port 1, same situation.

The thing that bothers me is that my DP34 looks and feel solid as a rock, all metal made, heavy, but the DPP44 is so light, looks and feel dirt cheap, mostly in plastic, not sure if this stuff of mine is just a clone made in China or that's the way it is.

So, things go back to the way it was, no power inserter needed for DP34, less cable, less equipment. Have to sell the DPP44 now. No hard feeling.

[Terryl]

The DPP44 switch should be all metal, if it's all or part plastic then you got a clone from somewhere.

And most everything is made in China now days.

This is what a real DPP44 switch should look like. (at least all mine do)

(click on image to enlarge)

17741

[Terryl]

To help out with this I made up a block diagram showing what I think is your setup, please advise on any corrections, I have also attached it as a PDF file so you download and zoom in to look at it.

17742


17743

[satchick]

The RF output of the Satzen may not be strong enough to split four ways. Replacing the splitter with a distribution amp may solve the weak audio problem.

[simbatran]

To help out with this I made up a block diagram showing what I think is your setup, please advise on any corrections, I have also attached it as a PDF file so you download and zoom in to look at it.

17742


17743

Thank you very much. Yes, the picture is quite correct. The numbers might be a bit off.

- DP34 port1 to SV8K - 50 ft
- DP34 port2 to 1st coupler (at the outside wall of the house): 50 ft, 1st coupler to 2nd coupler (in the central box in the closet of the MBR): 75 ft. The 2nd coupler to Satzen (3 ft), from 1x4 splitter to the TVs: 50 ft. All this run by the builder, inside the walls, nothing I can do here in terms of running cables. As mentioned in previous post, all are RG-6, the cables are pretty thick and don't look cheap to me, although I can't guarantee for sure its quality.

Of course, I have tried removing the 1x4 splitter and directly connected to just 1 TV using a coupler, just about the same too.

Again, it is the audio at the Satzen that is weak, video is quite acceptable with signal at 80, quality at 95 on the Satzen. On the SV8K, the signal somehow shows much weaker, 60 for HD, 65-70 for SD, but the quality is higher, 90 for HD, 95-100 for SD. But A/V on the SV8K is pretty decent, no complaint at all.

[simbatran]

The DPP44 switch should be all metal, if it's all or part plastic then you got a clone from somewhere.

And most everything is made in China now days.

This is what a real DPP44 switch should look like. (at least all mine do)

(click on image to enlarge)

17741


Yours sure looks different form mine. Mine is sold all over ebay, called the new "ground" model, and looks like this. I bought it brand new.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/DISH-NETWORK-DPP-44-SWITCH-AND-POWER-INSERTER-GROUND-BLOCK-VERSION-DP-PLUS-NEW-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$T2eC16VHJI!E9qSO8wtlBQU7Z1so8Q~~60_57.JPG