Nagra 4 is knocking at our door .......

[sneakymise]

I'll post this in the rumour section cause nobody will believe me but....

A certain "Northern" provider is gonna start a nice little card swap before the holidays...
Guess who's gonna follow... Big brother down south.

Im supposed to have some pics of the new card next week from my source.
I'll post it then.

How will iks servers handle the swap is left to be seen.

Good weekend to all!

[Nostradamus]

yeah I will believe that when I see it. Since most of the new units were cardless they are going to implement the card slot and use a piece of plastic again? I doubt that! Nag 3 has never been hacked, there is work arounds and again that is only on the old receivers still using plastic. BEV and DN have never even began to show the coders what Nag 3 really has under the hood so the odds of them rolling out a new model are next to nil. It would make more sense and cheaper in the long run to offer free upgrades to people still using the older boxes with cards. No more cards then no more piracy, simple isn't it? I have said it for years, deep down inside the sat providers like people stealing their TV and they are not losing near the revenue they claim either. First off they really have no way of knowing how many people would actually be subscribed if they didn't pirate the signal so all they can do is guess on that! And secondly, they use the piracy much the same as a free HBO weekend and then yank the rug out from under a persons feet with an ECM. Every ECM they usually gain a few more subs. It is all part of the game

[dishuser]

I'll post this in the rumour section cause nobody will believe me but....

A certain "Northern" provider is gonna start a nice little card swap before the holidays...
Guess who's gonna follow... Big brother down south.

Im supposed to have some pics of the new card next week from my source.
I'll post it then.

How will iks servers handle the swap is left to be seen.

Good weekend to all!and it takes a year to hear that knock?

[sneakymise]

I agree with Nostradamus 100% . And yes it does take between 9 months to a year to do a swap. But I'm telling there is an actual new plastic from bev and it looks like they will start a swap. I will have more details and possibly a few pics next week.
Activating a cardslot is nothing. They can send that command through the stream. Regardless of a certain version of card being compromised or not, providers have the card swaps setup a lot in advance.

Lets look at DTV, the last known card to be compromised was the HU. They've had 3 versions of cards after that. That's just the way its setup. At best of my knowledge Nagra 3 was never fully compromised , even in Europe, but... Polsat and some other providers in Europe are already using Nagra 4.

Anyhow, I posted it in the rumour section cause I dont have the actual card or pics of it yet. I'll post it as soon as I do.

[dishuser]

yeah I will believe that when I see it. Since most of the new units were cardless they are going to implement the card slot and use a piece of plastic again? I doubt that! Nag 3 has never been hacked, there is work arounds and again that is only on the old receivers still using plastic. BEV and DN have never even began to show the coders what Nag 3 really has under the hood so the odds of them rolling out a new model are next to nil. It would make more sense and cheaper in the long run to offer free upgrades to people still using the older boxes with cards. No more cards then no more piracy, simple isn't it? I have said it for years, deep down inside the sat providers like people stealing their TV and they are not losing near the revenue they claim either. First off they really have no way of knowing how many people would actually be subscribed if they didn't pirate the signal so all they can do is guess on that! And secondly, they use the piracy much the same as a free HBO weekend and then yank the rug out from under a persons feet with an ECM. Every ECM they usually gain a few more subs. It is all part of the game
software update enabled card slot and cards were sent out for n3
I have over 20 cards that came from 4100's...lol

[Nostradamus]

software update enabled card slot and cards were sent out for n3
I have over 20 cards that came from 4100's...lol

Oh I know man! I didn't mean it wasn't possible. I meant that it is stupid for them to go back to plastic when the cardless thing is more secure. Wouldn't be the first time those idiots shot themselves in the foot though

[dishuser]

Oh I know man! I didn't mean it wasn't possible. I meant that it is stupid for them to go back to plastic when the cardless thing is more secure. Wouldn't be the first time those idiots shot themselves in the foot though
nothing is cardless
it still has embedded cam
and all embedded cam ird's got slot activated
enjoy another year of nagra mailing out cams...lol
by the time they were half way thru n1 to n2 it was hacked...lol

[Nostradamus]

by cardless I meant plastic you can yank out of a box and usew to scrape frost off your windows ;)

I could see them mailing new cards out though, a sort of xmas bonus for their subs, since 40 channels of CBC is hardly a festive treat MUAHAHAHA

[iq180]

the cards are setup to be changed out every 3 years, if it is hacked or not and the time is at hand for b3v and soon for dn.

[whooper16]

wow, a full card swap before the holidays. better get started now ain't got much time left

[iq180]

wow, a full card swap before the holidays. better get started now ain't got much time left
that is when they start a card swap not when they finish, no provider will send out new cards at one time, the reason they dont
is that there could be problems with the new cards so the first cards they send out is more or less a test of the new system.

[sneakymise]

Usually the first cards to be used are on new customers with new receivers. Either rental or purchased. Then they start putting up a "Card Swap" channel for all their subs informing them they will receive a new card and procedures on how to swap. Then they start mailing cards.
So I figure, from what my source is telling me, that this will probably start taking place mid december and go on til about may-june. Bev hit the 2million customer mark earlier this year as opposed to 1.6 million on the last swap. So let me tell you, this process will be long and painful for them and subs !!

BTW: (Will probably have pics on monday)

[monkeyu]

Its true! I have seen the new cards already in the new 6400 hd! I was visiting neighbour when the bell installer was up from toronto setting him up as new subscriber. I hope we still will have fta and private servers yet.

[amorombre]

its not n4 !!!
its doctor who.. END OF TIME.. THE 3 KNOCKS that everyone on fta will be hearing on their stb's !!!.. every chnl..
and a blank screen ..

[sneakymise]

Well guys ...

Like I promised, here are the pics (front and back) of the new card BEV will send out to subs this winter. You can all draw your own conclusions if it's Nagra4 or not. The "EX-ID" of these cards is 13 which is totally not Nagra3 id's...

Let's see what happens.1689616897

[alfa1953]

Does that 22 on the card refer to Dec 22?? If so, then it won't matter, we're all doomed anyway.

[sneakymise]

LOL ! The 22 is the beginning of the smartcard number that I was asked to smudge out by my source.

[Nostradamus]

if you un-smudge the image there is also a sequence of three 6's in the number MUAHAHA

[sneakymise]

maybe !!! ;)

But maybe we should focus on the topic at hand....
A fact is that they do have a new card.
They are preparing for a swap.
Is DN gonna follow? Probably ..

How will this affect the game ?

As for the 666 ... Well.. :liang:

[Nostradamus]

why focus on anything? it is a new card, well big deal but anything anybody posts is pure speculation and even if somebody does start leaking facts they are just playing right into the providers hand. The best thing to do is sit back and watch. When the card swap is complete and BEV is black, then c'est la vie. Nothing you can do about it but try and squeeze a few more months out of DN before it goes black as well. If after the card swap, nothing changes then this thread is just another dead thread.

In the meantime this will probably be a better source of entertainment than the programming they have to offer so I am curious to see what the lady who lives 2 blocks over has heardd from her grandmothers half brother who is an installer for the provider ;)

[TurboPirate]

Interesting, I am not going against your word since I am clueless to technology but saying what appear in my mind when I saw the photos, maybe is the same N3 but with some sort of wall or defense so the card's info can't be share??

[JCO]

why focus on anything? it is a new card, well big deal but anything anybody posts is pure speculation and even if somebody does start leaking facts they are just playing right into the providers hand. The best thing to do is sit back and watch. When the card swap is complete and BEV is black, then c'est la vie. Nothing you can do about it but try and squeeze a few more months out of DN before it goes black as well. If after the card swap, nothing changes then this thread is just another dead thread.

In the meantime this will probably be a better source of entertainment than the programming they have to offer so I am curious to see what the lady who lives 2 blocks over has heardd from her grandmothers half brother who is an installer for the provider ;)
I asked her and she said her grandmothers half brother is now working for the cable company so she has no aditional info..

[Just_angel]

hmmmm ok enough of the BS.....sneakymise your last post has been Moderated by me

and l don't care what you think about it.....rudeness to staff is not going to fly at this site

[dishuser]

hmmmm ok enough of the BS.....sneakymise your last post has been Moderated by me

and l don't care what you think about it.....rudeness to staff is not going to fly at this siteI sure hope they got an infraction
that'll wise them up

[erijerdes]

Well they need to get going and start testing the new cards and see if they can work on them.

[Nostradamus]

well how do you know they are not already? then you have the flip side as well. Anybody running a private server is not going to come out and tell you it will not work. Sales would drop off really fast. Who would order up for another year if it was only going to be up for 2 months? No one in their right mind. Also I can't imagine anybody to be stupid enough to come out and say they are already testing the new card and it presents no problems either. That would certainly garner some unwanted interest from undesirables. That is why I said numerous posts ago that got taken out of context. Don't believe anything you see posted on forums as it will be all conjecture or simply facts twisted all out of perspective. The best option for anybody using this provider is just to sit back and wait and see what happens when the dust settles. The one thing you can probably count on though is the fact that if indeed BEV does go black is that DN will not be too far behind

[iq180]

well how do you know they are not already? then you have the flip side as well. Anybody running a private server is not going to come out and tell you it will not work. Sales would drop off really fast. Who would order up for another year if it was only going to be up for 2 months? No one in their right mind. Also I can't imagine anybody to be stupid enough to come out and say they are already testing the new card and it presents no problems either. That would certainly garner some unwanted interest from undesirables. That is why I said numerous posts ago that got taken out of context. Don't believe anything you see posted on forums as it will be all conjecture or simply facts twisted all out of perspective. The best option for anybody using this provider is just to sit back and wait and see what happens when the dust settles. The one thing you can probably count on though is the fact that if indeed BEV does go black is that DN will not be too far behind
yep, yep & yep, and we are the poker chips in the card game,LOL.

[fifties]

Interesting, I am not going against your word since I am clueless to technology but saying what appear in my mind when I saw the photos, maybe is the same N3 but with some sort of wall or defense so the card's info can't be share??
I remember reading some years back, before N3 became operational, that it was supposed to have anti-IKS S/W, which apparently didn't work.

I believe I also read that the Nag3 card swap cost either DN or NagraStar one million dollars. Now given that there have to be pitifully fewer pirates using IKS than there ever were using stand-alone, to think that it would be cost-effective for them to repeat this exercise for anything beyond perhaps "bragging rights" certainly seems unrealistic. And if an N4 card doesn't stop IKS, they will have totally wasted their money.

[Nostradamus]

you would think so but then nobody really knows who is on the hook for a card swap. I would suspect nagra must warranty their work to a certain extent. The fact that it was never full blown hack would be a good defence but it still was able to be used for IKS which would make a DN suit look good against them. The thing is the guys are so in cahoots they would never take each other to court to fight it out. They just switch positions and Ergen gets in the driver seat instead of Kudelski for awhile :D

[henpecked]

They're doing pretty good lately knocking down IKS on Thursdays..don't know if they need N4
I'm sure these "hits" are eventually gonna have an impact on IKS..
Both the IKS provider and the end user are starting to get pissed and tired to the point of
many getting out of this "game"



I remember reading some years back, before N3 became operational, that it was supposed to have anti-IKS S/W, which apparently didn't work.

I believe I also read that the Nag3 card swap cost either DN or NagraStar one million dollars. Now given that there have to be pitifully fewer pirates using IKS than there ever were using stand-alone, to think that it would be cost-effective for them to repeat this exercise for anything beyond perhaps "bragging rights" certainly seems unrealistic. And if an N4 card doesn't stop IKS, they will have totally wasted their money.

[TurboPirate]

I remember reading some years back, before N3 became operational, that it was supposed to have anti-IKS S/W, which apparently didn't work.

I believe I also read that the Nag3 card swap cost either DN or NagraStar one million dollars. Now given that there have to be pitifully fewer pirates using IKS than there ever were using stand-alone, to think that it would be cost-effective for them to repeat this exercise for anything beyond perhaps "bragging rights" certainly seems unrealistic. And if an N4 card doesn't stop IKS, they will have totally wasted their money.

Exactly, since I don't know nothing about this electronics stuff, I mention what it came in my mind, now that you mention it I do remember reading something about anti iks and indeed looks it didn't work, may be this is an attempt to stop IKS, who knows? because I certainly don't know about this technology. I use true fta channels and a sub

[fifties]

They're doing pretty good lately knocking down IKS on Thursdays..don't know if they need N4
I'm sure these "hits" are eventually gonna have an impact on IKS..
Both the IKS provider and the end user are starting to get pissed and tired to the point of
many getting out of this "game"
Not hardly.

From what I understand, the Thursday hits are compromised within an hour or two for most tiers, and a day or so later for the rest.

And this is no different than what Charlie did against stand-alone some years back, and going further, what we experienced with Dave; he used to hit like clockwork every Thursday at 6 PM eastern.

Neither defense seemed to put much of a dent into the hacking community, as I recall.

[Nostradamus]

actually the dave and earlier DN hits were really counterproductive as everytime they opened their bag of tricks the hackers learned more about the card and how to counteract the attacks. By the end of Nag2 both SV and Kbox guys had pretty much full emulation and their hacks stood up better than some of the subbed cards

[dishuser]

actually the dave and earlier DN hits were really counterproductive as everytime they opened their bag of tricks the hackers learned more about the card and how to counteract the attacks. By the end of Nag2 both SV and Kbox guys had pretty much full emulation and their hacks stood up better than some of the subbed cards
ecm had nothing to do with it
they emulated the last cam for n2...the S0x series
just ask doc ;)
cnx was using 102/3 and every hit was fixed within 10 minutes
ecm came in 2 parts so it was an easy fix once 2nd part hit stream;)

[Nostradamus]

ok ya lost me.. how is

they emulated the last cam for n2...the S0x series

any different than this?

By the end of Nag2 both SV and Kbox guys had pretty much full emulation

[dishuser]

ok ya lost me.. how is

they emulated the last cam for n2...the S0x series

any different than this?

By the end of Nag2 both SV and Kbox guys had pretty much full emulation

ecm targeted 102/3
so the S0x was unaffected
cnx could've had the same but by then had already chose to go iks and blindscan and lost support from their coder
wasn't pretty much full emulation...it was

[Nostradamus]

well I can't say if it was a byte for byte card image or not but I do know that for about 3 months prior to Nag3 they were flawless. Probably no coincidence that both those companies are long gone either hehehe

[dishuser]

well I can't say if it was a byte for byte card image or not but I do know that for about 3 months prior to Nag3 they were flawless. Probably no coincidence that both those companies are long gone either hehehe
I've said enough on this n2
let the rest be speculation..lol
as for long gone....next...lol

[iq180]

if what i here is true this new card will be the end of iks, this new card will id its self in the sat stream, so nagra can turn this card
off with in 15 min from the time it is put in a card server, i hope this is not true, but we will know soon enought.

[the_undertaker]

maybe !!! ;)

But maybe we should focus on the topic at hand....
A fact is that they do have a new card.
They are preparing for a swap.
Is DN gonna follow? Probably ..

How will this affect the game ?

As for the 666 ... Well.. :liang:

I know this guy is rude , first hand "dont I sneakymise"i too hope that rudeness to staff got him some time off, you guys are only helping and also very imformitive and you dont need rudeness from peeps like him

[1boxman]

Kinda thought n4 was in there for awhile .:innocent:
But they have to do everything possible to stop any theft .

So card swap is over do .

Do not think they would waste cash on nothing .

[steven charles]

you got to love testing,it makes you wonder,whats coming next,long live fta,its here to stay,lol,,

[dishuser]

you got to love testing,it makes you wonder,whats coming next,long live fta,its here to stay,lol,,

testing?
what have you tested?

[1boxman]

New batteries in remote ?

[dishuser]

New batteries in remote ?

or people's patience

[steven charles]

New batteries in remote ?good one bro,but i almost tested all receivers,i need some new ones,lol,,

[fifties]

if what i here is true this new card will be the end of iks, this new card will id its self in the sat stream, so nagra can turn this card
off with in 15 min from the time it is put in a card server, i hope this is not true, but we will know soon enought.
How would Nagra know which cards are in the IKS servers, to shut off?

[thunder bird]

Good question???:noidea:

[1boxman]

How would Nagra know which cards are in the IKS servers, to shut off?

By the type of card being used in the system ?..lol

assume you mean exact card ..(cam )

If it was emu ..mite be hard to trace ?

Or has the new card ..going to help figure that out .. ?

[dishuser]

How would Nagra know which cards are in the IKS servers, to shut off?

really?mark the otp and bam

[fifties]

really?mark the otp and bam
What is an "otp"?

[fifties]

So the otp was what Dave burned out in Black Sunday...Of course those cards were then repaired in a fashion by inserting them into bootboards, bypassing the damaged area.

My original question however, was not how they would shut the IKS cards down, but rather how they would be detected, in order to proceed with doing that.

Even though Charlie has stooges who have bought "donations" into each IKS server, what good would that do them in determining each card's ID? Or, what other method could they employ?

[dishuser]

So the otp was what Dave burned out in Black Sunday...Of course those cards were then repaired in a fashion by inserting them into bootboards, bypassing the damaged area.

My original question however, was not how they would shut the IKS cards down, but rather how they would be detected, in order to proceed with doing that.

Even though Charlie has stooges who have bought "donations" into each IKS server, what good would that do them in determining each card's ID? Or, what other method could they employ?and I told you the otp
how do you think cams were looped during nagra and nagra2?
apparently they screwed up with n3
and no it isn't like dave
one means just that...one
unless you can hack it you can't do squat...iks isn't a hack...it's a work around

[fifties]

and I told you the otp
how do you think cams were looped during nagra and nagra2?

I was under the impression that subbed cards back then were not looped, to any appreciable degree...And likewise, that the cards currently being used in IKS are legit subs.

[dishuser]

I was under the impression that subbed cards back then were not looped, to any appreciable degree...And likewise, that the cards currently being used in IKS are legit subs.

error 019...cam looped

[iq180]

So the otp was what Dave burned out in Black Sunday...Of course those cards were then repaired in a fashion by inserting them into bootboards, bypassing the damaged area.

My original question however, was not how they would shut the IKS cards down, but rather how they would be detected, in order to proceed with doing that.

Even though Charlie has stooges who have bought "donations" into each IKS server, what good would that do them in determining each card's ID? Or, what other method could they employ?
the card id # is sent in the packets, n3 had this but the coders found a way to block it, and if they cant block the card id info on
the n4 card iks is over, it is what it is, but there is allways a way.

[fifties]

I'm still missing something; how does DN determine WHICH subscribed cards are in an IKS server, out of the 14 million in the field?

[iq180]

each card has its own id number and it is sent in the packets that opens the CHs in the fta reciver, so all nagra needs is a sub to the
iks server, and the software to open the packets and id the card thats in the server, i was told they could do all of this in 15 min.
hope the coders can stop the card from sending the card id #, if not iks is over, only the true privet servers will last, and if nagra
can get a sub to them they will be dead too.

[fifties]

If that's the situation, then why hasn't Nagra shut down every public IKS server by now? So far, the only way they have been able to (Sonysat and DA) has not been by that means.

[dishuser]

If that's the situation, then why hasn't Nagra shut down every public IKS server by now? So far, the only way they have been able to (Sonysat and DA) has not been by that means.
now you see why n4 is coming?

[iq180]

the coders found a way to stop the n3 card from sending the card id # in the packets, look at the big iks providers and see how many HD CHs are up, there are less and less after each ecm now, why would this be the case, after each ecm they need to buy
new recivers and if the new recivers have the n4 card and they cant use them then they need to find sub recivers with n3 cards.

[fifties]

Thx guys; the light bulb just came on...It's an old bulb...;)

[rockisdead]

So it's time to get rid of the HD receivers?

[kyzursozay]

so could this otp eprom exploit be the cause of a certain large inexpensive iks server from no longer offering 72.7 HD (eastern arc) support ? seems like there's still an abundance of mpeg4 1st gen. ird's for sale.

[ftaalltheway]

most peeps in this hobby also have
a sub so why go after peanuts that are left in this game??
i wonder if that is cost effective to do n4

appreciate this thread no matter what is belivebale
every angle is now being looked at by all and can only hopes the coders
do their THANG and keep this hobby alive, im sure they are on top of it
or working it esp if they can get their hands on one of these cards way in advance

otherwise someone will have to hack into the new kids skybluHDTV (freehd) in
the North
supposed to be coming in early 2013 , but they blew there launch date
3 times so far, so not holdin my breth

anyway pls keep this hobby alive boyz
and

always thought iks came after n3 began the swap and providers
didnt know about iks until they started that swap...what am i missing?
pls someone explain this? thanks

[fifties]

always thought iks came after n3 began the swap and providers
didnt know about iks until they started that swap...what am i missing?
pls someone explain this? thanks
Nope.

IKS was available during the Nagra 2 days from at least two FTA receiver brands, neither of which names I can remember.

[jazzman]

Nope.

IKS was available during the Nagra 2 days from at least two FTA receiver brands, neither of which names I can remember.

I believe Nfusion and Neosat each ran a form of IKS before Nag 3 hit.

[fifties]

I knew one of you youngsters would remember! ;)

[robz2801]

bump bump bump

[ftaalltheway]

I believe Nfusion and Neosat each ran a form of IKS before Nag 3 hit.

so providers knew of both and standalone were hit
at same time as iks with ecm?

im only askin to try to make snese that n4 is to
stop iks

[fifties]

so providers knew of both and standalone were hit
at same time as iks with ecm?

im only askin to try to make snese that n4 is to
stop iks

No, their sales pitch was that their boxes stayed up on IKS when an ECM would hit the stand-alone bins, so I imagine they were using subbed cards back then as well.

As I think I posted earlier, back in 2009 there was discussion that N3 actually did have measures to address IKS, which BTW has been in existence in other parts of the world for quite some time.

I can't believe that it's been 3-1/2 years since N3 came into the stream.

[ftaalltheway]

No, their sales pitch was that their boxes stayed up on IKS when an ECM would hit the stand-alone bins, so I imagine they were using subbed cards back then as well.

As I think I posted earlier, back in 2009 there was discussion that N3 actually did have measures to address IKS, which BTW has been in existence in other parts of the world for quite some time.

I can't believe that it's been 3-1/2 years since N3 came into the stream.

aha, thanks for that i came into it just b4 (6 months) n3 swap was completed and
wasnt aware they both coexisted

im not as teck savvy as most of you guys but still cant see iks dying
with an n4 swap ,just a hunch but dont think provider is as keen to shut
this hobby down completyely...lets call it, wishfull thinking on my part. lol

[fifties]

just a hunch but dont think provider is as keen to shut
this hobby down completyely...lets call it, wishfull thinking on my part. lol
You can underline the wishful thinking part.

The provider and their security team, Nagra Star, know there will always be signal theft, hell, even Dave knows his Pee4 isn't totally secure, but as long as it's kept underground, and by virtue of that only available to a select few, they have to live with that, and I doubt are uncomfortable about it, given most likely the utterly small numbers of scofflaws.

If N4 really has the tech capacity to ID cards in the IKS servers, you can say goodbye to the scheme, once the platform is activated.

Now that said, Netflix has a way of streaming flicks and TV shows over the internet -and with an interface- to a conventional TV set. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that scheme might be employed into this "hobby" in some manner, as the next "phase"...

[ftaalltheway]

You can underline the wishful thinking part.

The provider and their security team, Nagra Star, know there will always be signal theft, hell, even Dave knows his Pee4 isn't totally secure, but as long as it's kept underground, and by virtue of that only available to a select few, they have to live with that, and I doubt are uncomfortable about it, given most likely the utterly small numbers of scofflaws.

If N4 really has the tech capacity to ID cards in the IKS servers, you can say goodbye to the scheme, once the platform is activated.

Now that said, Netflix has a way of streaming flicks and TV shows over the internet -and with an interface- to a conventional TV set. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that scheme might be employed into this "hobby" in some manner, as the next "phase"...

yeah i have a few virgin pee5 waiting to be activated lol

anywho just as well with all this, too many overpriced, oversold p$
in this hobby imho,,,, as it is and getting so you cant trust them less and less
and with others coming and goiwing as soon as their pockets are filled
...was way better with boxes being sold and socalled publicserver access provided,

i guess your right about netflix, hell
if netflix was to stream all the channels we now get in this hobby, id gladly pay THEM
but then the price would be more since the providers would want their share

round and round she goes...lol

[evileyes]

the north provider is not changing out cards,but they are ditching all mpeg2 irds for mpeg4...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Nagra filled a lawsuit against Dean Love from Winnipeg alleging some conspiracy piracy on their Rom 241 smart card. I have not seen the court docs but it appears Nagra got an Anton Pillar order for a civil seizure based on what they posted on therir PR site and based on what Dean said on his site. Dean put up a site looking for donations to his legal fight where he admits to having reversed engineered a small portion of their card.



http'://www.stopnagra.com/'Home.php




GS2

[Nostradamus]

Nagra filled a lawsuit against Dean Love from Winnipeg alleging some conspiracy piracy on their Rom 241 smart card. I have not seen the court docs but it appears Nagra got an Anton Pillar order for a civil seizure based on what they posted on therir PR site and based on what Dean said on his site. Dean put up a site looking for donations to his legal fight where he admits to having reversed engineered a small portion of their card.



http'://www.stopnagra.com/'Home.php




GS2

sure is good this post is in rumors ROTFLMAO

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

sure is good this post is in rumors ROTFLMAO


? not understanding. Its more real than rumor actually. Its actually in my opinion evidence that someone was able to reverse engineer Nag 3 or part of it because they are being sued for it. Dean is an old timer.




In November 2012, NagraStar LLC, together with Nagravision S.A., DISH Network LLC, EchoStar Satellite LLC and EchoStar Technologies LLC, commenced a legal action against Dean Love of Winnipeg, Manitoba. Love was active on piracy forum web sites under the moniker “wEeDeR”. An injunction was obtained and a civil search order was executed against Love and his premises. The execution of the order resulted in the seizure of technology and substantial evidence and information concerning the unlawful activities of Love and others. The action was another victory in NagraStar‘s continuing efforts to prevent satellite television piracy throughout North America.





GS2

[skywalker999]

so after all this is the fix coming out next week maybe :yeaah:

[JCO]

You can underline the wishful thinking part.

The provider and their security team, Nagra Star, know there will always be signal theft, hell, even Dave knows his Pee4 isn't totally secure, but as long as it's kept underground, and by virtue of that only available to a select few, they have to live with that, and I doubt are uncomfortable about it, given most likely the utterly small numbers of scofflaws.

If N4 really has the tech capacity to ID cards in the IKS servers, you can say goodbye to the scheme, once the platform is activated.

Now that said, Netflix has a way of streaming flicks and TV shows over the internet -and with an interface- to a conventional TV set. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that scheme might be employed into this "hobby" in some manner, as the next "phase"...

Bev is already doing it in CAnada with Fiber optics and a full duplex system.. Who knows maybe DN will apply a duplex system with their own variety of IKS..They seeem to be moving into sat internet..

[Nostradamus]

? not understanding. Its more real than rumor actually. Its actually in my opinion evidence that someone was able to reverse engineer Nag 3 or part of it because they are being sued for it. Dean is an old timer.








GS2

well I have a few issues with the post myself .. One how was he discovered? usually there is some type of trail. Was he on sites bragging about tearing the card apart or what? Did he get taken down when that server got busted or was he given up in exchange?

other things that don't make sense was he was issued a search warrant. An Anton Pillar order to the best of my knowledge is a gag order. If that is the case then I would think his very site begging for money is in direct violation of that order

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

well I have a few issues with the post myself .. One how was he discovered? usually there is some type of trail. Was he on sites bragging about tearing the card apart or what? Did he get taken down when that server got busted or was he given up in exchange?

other things that don't make sense was he was issued a search warrant. An Anton Pillar order to the best of my knowledge is a gag order. If that is the case then I would think his very site begging for money is in direct violation of that order



I have no idea how it was discovered only know there was a lawsuit filled and Dean put up a site for donations because of it. It seems to me that Dean was able to make some progress with the Nag 3 card was really the point I was trying to make since people are talking about Nag 4 coming. What Dean was able to do might have played into them believing they had a problem with Nag 3 and that is speculation.


An Anton Pillar Order is basically granting a Civil seizure to the Plaintiffs that is done without the knowledge of the defendant. When there is an Anton Pillar order there usually is a gag order in place for a certain period of time. He probably put the site up after the order had finished. The order is not permanent maybe for 30 days or something. As far as being how he was discovered that would probably be in the court docs. This was posted at another site is how I became aware of it. Its posted at Nag PR site about the lawsuit. http'://satscams.com/?p='1773


I thought Dean had packed up from the piracy scene from many years ago for good like back to 2002 to 2004 so was quite surprise to read about this. He has had quite a few of past sat legal battles in court.




GS2

[fifties]

I thought Dean had packed up from the piracy scene from many years ago for good like back to 2002 to 2004
Once hacking is in your blood...F Raud hacked Dave, got busted, then hacked DN, before ratting the Viewsat 3 out.

[dishuser]

gag order is 10 days unless extension is applied

[kuko]

well there is a card that has a n4 logo but it is not an oficial n4 card it is just a card for the new I got to see the card it is a creem color

[Nostradamus]

really? I guess it is just to keep you from tipping off your buddies then until they can be charged as well LOL I always thought the things were automatic from time the guy got served until he had...

[dishuser]

in 2005 I called a buddy and when he answered he said I can't talk to you for 10 days and hung up <br />
that's a good enough tip for anyone...lol

[lacoster7]

U all are blabbing your gums without any sense and merit.
WeEdeR was blabbing his mouth at ET and BRT.
As a result, BRT was closed down abruptly without any warning.
And ET was closed down by Total on Jan 19. with warning and statement, that he is not gonna sell the site.

What was "wonderful" about it, that somebody check it out, and told me, that ET was taken over by dish in Nov, could not confirmed that myself.

but from my conversations, it was obvious, that FBI approach Total and probably threaten him, so he was forced to close it down, or face costly consequences.

BRT was closed down abruptly, cause everything to hack this damned plastic was there, this leak about choke shows up something like 2 years ago, nobody pays attention to that.
And last year shows up this new info about "parasite"current, so add 2 and 2 and u have almost everything to be able to do it, even with slightly modified powersync.
Just put that damned choke, on all rails, even parameters were specified.
~~~~~~~~~
As for the WeEdEr, he didn't accomplished anything, just managed to read data space, thats all.
He couldn't get to ROM by no means.
Actually reading data space, almost everybody may do it without any special programming
Thats where "tiers" hack was derived from about almost 3 years ago.
And thats where "206" was initially working, but not anymore after later versions
~~~~~~~~~
Anybody want to make dumb experiment ????
Put married 241 card in the receiver, ver for example H05, and although card and receiver is not activated, once the card is in the stream for about 2 hours, card is gonna be updated to latest ver H09. getting any clue ??????
Not yet, so read more......

Now take atmega 128, load 102 , marry to the receiver and add full recent tiers, everything should be green now.
You may spoof it to 241 H05, or you may load 206 if u know how to do it.
Now data space should be updated,
Now call dish and try to activate this receiver, data space is gonna be again activate in atmega128. You may even log the stream during acivation.

Now data space in Atmega u may read without any problem after activation, so there is no need for any fancy/tricky programming.
But u can not read any ROM, it is alwayes same I supposed, in all versions.
It is done by stamping die during production of cards

so weeder was blabbing about nothing, tricky arduino glitcher and all BS.
but dish?nagra got scared and got his az, he face now lengthy and expensive court proceedings, thats why he begging money for his defense.

Think, he should play on insanity like theRotten

[dishuser]

owner of brt said he was closing long before he did and it had nothing to do with dean

[dishuser]

I have no idea how it was discovered only know there was a lawsuit filled and Dean put up a site for donations because of it. It seems to me that Dean was able to make some progress with the Nag 3 card was really the point I was trying to make since people are talking about Nag 4 coming. What Dean was able to do might have played into them believing they had a problem with Nag 3 and that is speculation.


An Anton Pillar Order is basically granting a Civil seizure to the Plaintiffs that is done without the knowledge of the defendant. When there is an Anton Pillar order there usually is a gag order in place for a certain period of time. He probably put the site up after the order had finished. The order is not permanent maybe for 30 days or something. As far as being how he was discovered that would probably be in the court docs. This was posted at another site is how I became aware of it. Its posted at Nag PR site about the lawsuit. http'://satscams.com/?p='1773


I thought Dean had packed up from the piracy scene from many years ago for good like back to 2002 to 2004 so was quite surprise to read about this. He has had quite a few of past sat legal battles in court.




GS2
read judgment in DA cases
it is now illegal to test,analyze,reverse engineer...etc

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

read judgment in DA cases
it is now illegal to test,analyze,reverse engineer...etc


Don't think I said it was legal although I don't know about reverse engineering being illegal. I know from past it was not like the reverse engineering that Tarnovsky did of the nag card in the Dik V Nd. lawsuit but maybe it has changed. I'll have to read the judgments in the DA cases since I haven't.



GS2

[dishuser]

Don't think I said it was legal although I don't know about reverse engineering being illegal. I know from past it was not like the reverse engineering that Tarnovsky did of the nag card in the Dik V Nd. lawsuit but maybe it has changed. I'll have to read the judgments in the DA cases since I haven't.



GS2that was my point
dean is screwed
he got caught after new acts were made
it says in DA judgments takes effect immediately

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Only a few cases have gag orders in Canada and that goes with an Anton Pillar order that is not granted very often. But they seem to have been routinely given by courts for certain sat cases. The...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

U all are blabbing your gums without any sense and merit.
WeEdeR was blabbing his mouth at ET and BRT.
As a result, BRT was closed down abruptly without any warning.
And ET was closed down by Total on Jan 19. with warning and statement, that he is not gonna sell the site.

What was "wonderful" about it, that somebody check it out, and told me, that ET was taken over by dish in Nov, could not confirmed that myself.

but from my conversations, it was obvious, that FBI approach Total and probably threaten him, so he was forced to close it down, or face costly consequences.

BRT was closed down abruptly, cause everything to hack this damned plastic was there, this leak about choke shows up something like 2 years ago, nobody pays attention to that.
And last year shows up this new info about "parasite"current, so add 2 and 2 and u have almost everything to be able to do it, even with slightly modified powersync.
Just put that damned choke, on all rails, even parameters were specified.
~~~~~~~~~
As for the WeEdEr, he didn't accomplished anything, just managed to read data space, thats all.
He couldn't get to ROM by no means.
Actually reading data space, almost everybody may do it without any special programming
Thats where "tiers" hack was derived from about almost 3 years ago.
And thats where "206" was initially working, but not anymore after later versions
~~~~~~~~~
Anybody want to make dumb experiment ????
Put married 241 card in the receiver, ver for example H05, and although card and receiver is not activated, once the card is in the stream for about 2 hours, card is gonna be updated to latest ver H09. getting any clue ??????
Not yet, so read more......

Now take atmega 128, load 102 , marry to the receiver and add full recent tiers, everything should be green now.
You may spoof it to 241 H05, or you may load 206 if u know how to do it.
Now data space should be updated,
Now call dish and try to activate this receiver, data space is gonna be again activate in atmega128. You may even log the stream during acivation.

Now data space in Atmega u may read without any problem after activation, so there is no need for any fancy/tricky programming.
But u can not read any ROM, it is alwayes same I supposed, in all versions.
It is done by stamping die during production of cards

so weeder was blabbing about nothing, tricky arduino glitcher and all BS.
but dish?nagra got scared and got his az, he face now lengthy and expensive court proceedings, thats why he begging money for his defense.

Think, he should play on insanity like theRotten



I think there might be more to it if they were able to convince a court to grant a civil seizure unless they lied about their evidence which is possible. They are alleging conspiracy.


Dean has accomplished things before like with his unlooper he came out with and is credited with the first card repair or unlooping solution for the "F" card.


He does not have the software coding knowledge from what I know but knows how to get help and does have experience on the hardware side. I would think Nagra considered him to be of danger for them to have filled this action.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

that was my point
dean is screwed
he got caught after new acts were made
it says in DA judgments takes effect immediately


He is being sued in Canada not the US and to be honest have no idea how the law would regard reverse engineering. There is a new copyright law in Canada that I think took effect in Nov 2012. Below pertains to reverse engineering but likely the courts have not dealt with it yet and doubt Dean was alleged to have violated because of the timing of him being served in Nov, 2012




The Copyright Modernization Act aims to eliminate some of the uncertainty facing innovative businesses. Provisions aimed at the software industry permit the reproduction of software and the hacking of digital locks in order to engage in reverse engineering, security testing and encryption research. Such provisions support, for example, companies that test software for security flaws and then develop and sell patches. Where copyright owners believe these tools have been misused, they will have recourse to deal with any infringement or inappropriate hacking of digital locks. The Bill also clarifies that companies do not face any copyright liability for technical copies that are essential but incidental to a product or service they offer.




GS2

[dishuser]

He is being sued in Canada not the US and to be honest have no idea how the law would regard reverse engineering. There is a new copyright law in Canada that I think took effect in Nov 2012. Below pertains to reverse engineering but likely the courts have not dealt with it yet and doubt Dean was alleged to have violated because of the timing of him being served in Nov, 2012








GS2
dn has already successfully gone after dealers in the past in canada
also card creators
once that is shown it should be easy or they wouldn't have bothered

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

dn has already successfully gone after dealers in the past in canada
also card creators
once that is shown it should be easy or they wouldn't have bothered


Yes but its not the DMCA but under Canadian law was the point I was saying. Either country they have been unfortunately successful. Civil is Civil but in Criminal the penalties for sat violations is very mild compared to the US. Still don't think anyone in Canada was ever sentenced to jail time except for being in contempt of court.



GS2

[dishuser]

Yes but its not the DMCA but under Canadian law was the point I was saying. Either country they have been unfortunately successful. Civil is Civil but in Criminal the penalties for sat violations is very mild compared to the US. Still don't think anyone in Canada was ever sentenced to jail time except for being in contempt of court.



GS2
who said anything about jail time?
he's gonna get sued large

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I posted a copy of an previous an Anton Pillar order used in a previous sat case in Canada in the court document forum.

This taken from it.




THIS COURT ORDERS that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the York Regional Police, or such other police services having jurisdiction may be notified and requested to attend to keep the peace at the execution of this Order but the presence of the police is not for the purpose of compelling or requiring entry to the Premises.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

who said anything about jail time?
he's gonna get sued large



No one did I just added it to my post. He is being sued for 10 million according to what he posted on his site looking for donations.



GS2

[msc117]

just checked in on this post and I feel it probably make sense to go back to a hackable method so they can make money suing people instead of making money off subscribers....

[dishuser]

No one did I just added it to my post. He is being sued for 10 million according to what he posted on his site looking for donations.



GS2
that's the same amount they asked for in 2005 against several canadians
what they got was much less

[lacoster7]

hacking is multi discipline method, team work.
aint so many peps in the world, who are able to do it without cooperations of others.

Secret is no secret if more than 2 people know about it.
Once the method and hack emerge, dish can do nothing, they wont be able to sue millions , no one will, even with deepest pockets.

And hundreds and thousands new sites come on line, is gonna be avalanche that nobody is gonna be able to stop it.

It is only matter of time.

Thats why dish is so vigilant in chasing out even slightest possibility of something of value in that area.

But they can not stop sunami.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

that's the same amount they asked for in 2005 against several canadians
what they got was much less


Yes they never get what they sue for. Besides who has 10 million in assets.



GS2

[fifties]

It is only matter of time.

Well that clock seems to be working in the providers favor;

Nag3 rolled out in June of 2009, and I haven't seen any hack for it lately...

[steven charles]

Well that clock seems to be working in the providers favor;

Nag3 rolled out in June of 2009, and I haven't seen any hack for it lately...friend just because we haven,t seen the fix it doesn,t mean it doesn,t exist,maybe there keeping it underground,who knows.....

[fifties]

friend just because we haven,t seen the fix it doesn,t mean it doesn,t exist,maybe there keeping it underground,who knows.....
I never implied that it didn't exist, only that I haven't seen one; IOW, nothing has been made public.

You can be sure that Tarnovsky reversed engineered the encryption, and I am sure he wasn't alone in that endeavor.

[steven charles]

my thinking is as long that iks exist you won,t see any standalone files even if is hacked already,because there making more money this way,but it would be nice to see a standalone file that way you won,t have to be connected to the internet at all times and be safer like before,,lol,,

[Hannibalector]

read judgment in DA cases
it is now illegal to test,analyze,reverse engineer...etc

not completely true there are specific people that can reverse engineer if they have the background as an engineer and have had contact with the people they intend to reverse engineer there products, if someone is in the security business of technology and posesses the skills to reverse engineer they can meet a criteria to do so

[dishuser]

not completely true there are specific people that can reverse engineer if they have the background as an engineer and have had contact with the people they intend to reverse engineer there products, if someone is in the security business of technology and posesses the skills to reverse engineer they can meet a criteria to do so

really?why would they go after those they hire?lol

[Hannibalector]

really?why would they go after those they hire?lol

who'm are you refering to ? certainly Tarnovsky and Kommerling will contact those that they intend to reverse engineer if not they'd be in jail or Chris's company fly logic (think he sold it ) would be in serious trouble and sued out the wazooo, there is a defined criteria to reverse engineer as long as it's met it's not illegal

[surfinisfun]

who'm are you refering to ? certainly Tarnovsky and Kommerling will contact those that they intend to reverse engineer if not they'd be in jail or Chris's company fly logic (think he sold it ) would be in serious trouble and sued out the wazooo, there is a defined criteria to reverse engineer as long as it's met it's not illegal

Thats true but unless its for profit why would anyone do it?

Just to annoy nagra, nope.....better be $ to be had along with the great escape otherwise its not going to happen.

[dishuser]

who'm are you refering to ? certainly Tarnovsky and Kommerling will contact those that they intend to reverse engineer if not they'd be in jail or Chris's company fly logic (think he sold it ) would be in serious trouble and sued out the wazooo, there is a defined criteria to reverse engineer as long as it's met it's not illegal
R
you make no sense...the law is obviously for those who don't have permission

[DrWhoFan]

Well that clock seems to be working in the providers favor;

Nag3 rolled out in June of 2009, and I haven't seen any hack for it lately...

Come on, if hack didnt exist then how could these P$ owners have all the PPV wide open? Not just all day tickets either. Nag 3 was hacked the powers that be just did a better job of keeping it private this time around.

[dhed]

Come on, if hack didnt exist then how could these P$ owners have all the PPV wide open? Not just all day tickets either. Nag 3 was hacked the powers that be just did a better job of keeping it private this time around.

i could tell you how they get the ppv but i wont in here but its not a hacked nag3 card.

[fifties]

Yes, it could, and prolly is, hacked by certain folks, but as I already posted, I haven't seen it. It's simply not available to the masses, like the Nag and Nag2 stand alone bins were. So effectively, it doesn't exist for 99.9% of us...

[DualTest]

And if there were a hack. Who is going to make bins for all the different old boxes out there? I can just see the bin begging for Pantecs and Fortecs. New boxes, you say? The only ones silly enough to do that have already gone to jail or signed an agreement to stay out of the business.

[henpecked]

Fifties, I'm surprised to see this coming from you..I know you've been around
I've said many times..these hacks don't happen in Joe six Pack's basement

You need sphisticated labs..money...knowledge..time and maybe inside info
Someone goes to all this trouble and keeps it for the 1% or for his buddies
Even if 1% has it...it would have been leaked...No one can keep secrets..


I disagree...there is no hack


Yes, it could, and prolly is, hacked by certain folks, but as I already posted, I haven't seen it. It's simply not available to the masses, like the Nag and Nag2 stand alone bins were. So effectively, it doesn't exist for 99.9% of us...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Fifties, I'm surprised to see this coming from you..I know you've been around
I've said many times..these hacks don't happen in Joe six Pack's basement

You need sphisticated labs..money...knowledge..time and maybe inside info
Someone goes to all this trouble and keeps it for the 1% or for his buddies
Even if 1% has it...it would have been leaked...No one can keep secrets..


I disagree...there is no hack


I tend to agree with that. I believe if there was a hack it would be out. I just don't believe there is this underground hack that people refer to. The people who do never saw it themselves. Every time there is no hack out come the private or underground theories or sightings. It goes back to VC2+ yet that time no one ever showed it, just say it exists.



GS2

[fifties]

You all are free to believe what you want, and lacking having seen anything with your own eyes, certainly can't be blamed for being skeptical.

Some years back, an underground forum member, for whom I had respect as someone trustworthy, revealed that he was in a group that had a Pee4 hack, the general description of which sounded a bit complex, and I believe needed upgrading every so often.

Did I see it with my own eyes? No, but I tended to believe him, based on our past acquaintance of several years.

Now to the Nag 3 situation;

do you believe for one minute that Chris Tarnovsky, who mentioned some years back at a Black Hat conference that he couldn't believe no one (else) had hacked it, hasn't done so?
He would of course have done it simply for the challenge, and certainly, with his high profile among both DTH providers, would have never revealed it. And if he did it, you can be sure that perhaps a select few others have as well.

Of course, I am only speculating about this; I can't say for proof positive.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

You all are free to believe what you want, and lacking having seen anything with your own eyes, certainly can't be blamed for being skeptical.

Some years back, an underground forum member, for whom I had respect as someone trustworthy, revealed that he was in a group that had a Pee4 hack, the general description of which sounded a bit complex, and I believe needed upgrading every so often.

Did I see it with my own eyes? No, but I tended to believe him, based on our past acquaintance of several years.

Now to the Nag 3 situation;

do you believe for one minute that Chris Tarnovsky, who mentioned some years back at a Black Hat conference that he couldn't believe no one (else) had hacked it, hasn't done so?
He would of course have done it simply for the challenge, and certainly, with his high profile among both DTH providers, would have never revealed it. And if he did it, you can be sure that perhaps a select few others have as well.

Of course, I am only speculating about this; I can't say for proof positive.


The people who claim its private or underground had not seen it themselves also. A long time ago a well respected member said there was a hack and it was fact. That member was put up to the challenge and later admitted he did not know for fact. I do not think Tarnovsky would do it for the challenge because of his past and people probably watching him. Yes Your speculating. He was sued by them and think he is motivated to say negative things about their encryption.



GS2

[Nostradamus]

the very fact that tarnovsky said he couldn't believe nobody else had hacked it pretty much is a challenge when you look at it. If he hadn't done it himself he wouldn't have known what was involved in doing it .. is it hacked/ my guess would be hell yeah! but whether it is ever seen publicly is doubtful. Not enough money being made in new box sales for anybody to toss the kind of coin around it would demand so my guess is some IKS server group might eventually lay out the required cash to make them invincible to the ECMs charlie tosses at them now

[magic]

Hello to everyone, does somebody has a flash dump or fw update form any new bell hd receiver? too much interesant things inside

[Terryl]

No, we cant talk about providers receivers, and this thread is over a year old, so it is closed.