Why are some IPTV servers down and some aren't?

[recyclebean]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. i've been reading around some threads and on Google. It seems that NFPS and Rocket are down. I have 2 donations with them, both aren't working...even after successfully logging with with the new user/pass authentication (I was able to watch for a week after logging in).

I also have 2 donations with IPguys and those are working just fine as of right now. It has never been down, and from my experience buffering is very minimal/rare compared to my NFPS/Rocket.

Some discussions say there is currently an ECM that's why NFPS/Rocket are down. But why wasn't the IPguys service affected at all? Are they not seeding from IKS?

thanks,

[van]

Very good question!

[dishuser]

huh?
iptv and ecm?
really?

[c8rbk1ng]

IPTV, Internet Protocol television, is a system through which television services are delivered using the Internet protocol suite over a packet-switched network such as a LAN or the Internet, instead of being delivered through traditional terrestrial, satellite signal, and cable television formats. IT IS NOT A SERVICE! These so called 'service providers' like the 2 you mentioned use this protocol to stream their 'service'. Why you guys pay for this is beyond belief when all that they offer is available for FREE! If you're having trouble with these 'services' I suggest you contact them for an answer...oh wait, even their support sites have no idea what's happening! Well, you get the 'service' that you paid for! They have your money and you are here asking why it's not working.

[recyclebean]

I guess I got myself into this thing the wrong way.I am misinformed. I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I will do more research but go easy on the newbies.

[Anubis]

I guess I got myself into this thing the wrong way.I am misinformed. I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I will do more research but go easy on the newbies.
Your question is a good one and I really can't explain the answers but this article may shed some light and possibly answer some of the questions you may have..
http://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-iptv-works.html

[mikil123]

Well to answer your question bro. Some of us do NOT have all week to find m3u and m3u8 files that work with stalker software? If you could kindly guide us to the easy way of finding free tv we ALL would be very appreciative? Thanks

[dishuser]

Well to answer your question bro. Some of us do NOT have all week to find m3u and m3u8 files that work with stalker software? If you could kindly guide us to the easy way of finding free tv we ALL would be very appreciative? Thanks
why do you need stalker?

[Anubis]

Well to answer your question bro. Some of us do NOT have all week to find m3u and m3u8 files that work with stalker software? If you could kindly guide us to the easy way of finding free tv we ALL would be very appreciative? Thanks
The easy way? Use your computer and download Kodi and install a few good repos or buy a media box and do the same. Hook either up to your TV and Bob's your uncle! You can of course install a HD antenna and voila! Free TV.

[c8rbk1ng]

Well to answer your question bro. Some of us do NOT have all week to find m3u and m3u8 files that work with stalker software? If you could kindly guide us to the easy way of finding free tv we ALL would be very appreciative? Thanks

You clearly have no idea how to use the available sources properly. As Anubis has stated, there are options available and once your system is set up you don't "search all week" for m3u sources. As a matter of fact, if this is what you're doing then you aren't using whatever media center you have the right way. There are many Kodi addons that provde the same 'live tv' channels that you are paying for from these 'providers' and they're FREE and working...but it's your money so you can throw it away if you like. The rest of us will use it for something we like better :)

[c8rbk1ng]

You can of course install a HD antenna and voila! Free TV.

Just a point of interest, there actually is no such thing as a HD antenna. The manufacturers just labeled their products that way to get more money from the consumer. Some are better that others but they all do the same thing. I made mine using a piece of wood, some clothes hangers and some washers and screws (you can Google instructions). The picture is actually better than the commercial products that I have :)

[jedi]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. i've been reading around some threads and on Google. It seems that NFPS and Rocket are down. I have 2 donations with them, both aren't working...even after successfully logging with with the new user/pass authentication (I was able to watch for a week after logging in).

I also have 2 donations with IPguys and those are working just fine as of right now. It has never been down, and from my experience buffering is very minimal/rare compared to my NFPS/Rocket.

Some discussions say there is currently an ECM that's why NFPS/Rocket are down. But why wasn't the IPguys service affected at all? Are they not seeding from IKS?
thanks,

There was an ECM for Dishnet IKS on Tuesday around 4:00 PM - after a hit like that it takes a while to get all of the cards replaced and back online. After a Tuesday hit Dishnet sometimes also hits on a Thursday and then again on Friday - so sometimes it takes 3 or 4 days to get everything back. After all channels are back they are good for about 4 weeks before Dishnet hits again.

NFPS/Rocket mostly use Dishnet IKS receivers to feed their IPTV streams and they also grab free streams wherever they can grab them. When their is a Dishnet IKS ECM they are going to have problems with some of their IPTV streams. They also had problems with the new User ID/Password security that they initiated so that was the reason for a lot of their recent problems.

IPTVguys (cod123) stream a lot of their channels from BEV IKS and some legally subscribed DirecTV, Dishnet and cable boxes - they also have a few feeds from OTA. BEV rarely hits the IKS cards with an ECM - so that is why they may be up but NFPS/Rocket may be having problems because of an ECM.

If they are using legal receivers (dish or cable) to feed the channels you will sometimes see messages from the Provider - such as pay your account or loss of signal. When you lose the signal with DirecTV it will splash your receiver and card ID on the screen - bet it doesn't take DirecTV long to kill all receivers on that account :-). You will sometimes also see a message about loss of signal on an OTA antenna.

[tubbs]

The easy way? Use your computer and download Kodi and install a few good repos or buy a media box and do the same. Hook either up to your TV and Bob's your uncle! You can of course install a HD antenna and voila! Free TV.

Can you suggest a good media box that can be installed with Kodi? I have a Avov and I don't like it much.
Thanks for the help

[Anubis]

Can you suggest a good media box that can be installed with Kodi? I have a Avov and I don't like it much.
Thanks for the help
Can you please start your own thread in the IPTV/KODI section so you are not hijacking this one?

Thanks.

[maird57]

You clearly have no idea how to use the available sources properly. As Anubis has stated, there are options available and once your system is set up you don't "search all week" for m3u sources. As a matter of fact, if this is what you're doing then you aren't using whatever media center you have the right way. There are many Kodi addons that provde the same 'live tv' channels that you are paying for from these 'providers' and they're FREE and working...but it's your money so you can throw it away if you like. The rest of us will use it for something we like better :)

I guess if it was as easy as you say everyone would be doing what you suggest. Maybe you could start a thread to explain step by step how easy it is. Do you get ALL the channels that BEV and Dish offer? PPV sports?

[JohnDrake007]

NFPS/Rocket mostly use Dishnet IKS receivers to feed their IPTV streams

A lot of users switched to IPTV streaming because they believed that IKS was not long for this world.

So it's kind of ironic to find out that many IPTV streams depend on IKS!

[Nostradamus]

IPTV does not depend on IKS and there is lots of options available. It is just some of the pay servers prefer to steal the signal they stream rather than pay for it. When IKS finally does die they won't have a choice if they want to continue

[c8rbk1ng]

I guess if it was as easy as you say everyone would be doing what you suggest. Maybe you could start a thread to explain step by step how easy it is. Do you get ALL the channels that BEV and Dish offer? PPV sports?

I would not expect any other statement from a seller of 'paid services'. There are many threads here explaining how to set up Kodi and it's addons and other media centers that are available for IPTV streaming. I get all the Bev, Dish, Sky and Direct TV channels that I am interested in as well as other channels from all over the world. I watch movies that are currently showing in the cinemas (I watched The Revenant and The Hateful Eight in full HD before they were even playing in the theaters) as well as any VOD movie or tv show and haven't missed a PPV sports event sinced I stopped using IKS over 3 years ago. Thousands of channels are available including most of the channels that you offer with a choice of multiple streams, not just one. You resellers dupe these peeps into thinking it's difficult and time consuming to use anything else but your 'service'. IT ISN"T!

[jedi]

I would not expect any other statement from a seller of 'paid services'. There are many threads here explaining how to set up Kodi and it's addons and other media centers that are available for IPTV streaming. I get all the Bev, Dish, Sky and Direct TV channels that I am interested in as well as other channels from all over the world. I watch movies that are currently showing in the cinemas (I watched The Revenant and The Hateful Eight in full HD before they were even playing in the theaters) as well as any VOD movie or tv show and haven't missed a PPV sports event sinced I stopped using IKS over 3 years ago. Thousands of channels are available including most of the channels that you offer with a choice of multiple streams, not just one. You resellers dupe these peeps into thinking it's difficult and time consuming to use anything else but your 'service'. IT ISN"T!

I hear what you are saying and agree with most of it..... but.......... you knew there was going to be "but" right.... :-)
There are some people that can "not" or prefer "not" to learn how to use IPTV for free with something like Kodi - they don't mind paying someone a small monthly fee to do the work for them.

For you and I and lots of other people - it is a simple task - but for others it may be an insurmountable task to try and watch the Red Wings game - or something on one of the national channels like ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, CBC, Fox News or CNN to catch the latest news. So in my opinion there is a place for the guys selling a service to make it easier for some people. I don't begrudge them for making a few bucks for learning how to do something that others can "not" or prefer "not" to learn how to do.

Everyone could do their own plumbing, electrical, house cleaning, cooking, roofing and save a fortune - but not everyone can or prefers not to do it themselves.

To you and I it may be a challenge and rewarding - to others - maybe not so much :-)

[jedi]

IPTV does not depend on IKS and there is lots of options available. It is just some of the pay servers prefer to steal the signal they stream rather than pay for it. When IKS finally does die they won't have a choice if they want to continue

I guess we can't really blame them - if they use IKS encoders and can spend $20 a month to stream one channel - why pay $50 or more to use legal receivers. If they don't cut costs and stay competitive then everyone will scream at them for charging too much. In my opinion people don't really appreciate the guys going the extra mile to use "legal" receivers to upload "illegal" IPTV streams - they just want the cheapest service they can find.

[c8rbk1ng]

I hear what you are saying and agree with most of it..... but.......... you knew there was going to be "but" right.... :-)
There are some people that can "not" or prefer "not" to learn how to use IPTV for free with something like Kodi - they don't mind paying someone a small monthly fee to do the work for them.

For you and I and lots of other people - it is a simple task - but for others it may be an insurmountable task to try and watch the Red Wings game - or something on one of the national channels like ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, CBC, Fox News or CNN to catch the latest news. So in my opinion there is a place for the guys selling a service to make it easier for some people.

It takes more of an effort to 'set up' the 'paid services' so you can use the service than it does to set up Kodi.

[jedi]

It takes more of an effort to 'set up' the 'paid services' so you can use the service than it does to set up Kodi.

Not in our area c8rbk1ng - you walk in pay the cash and walk out with a box ready to go. You don't have to do a think other than plug it into power, TV and internet.
They will also go to your house and set it up with your internet or TV if you need that sort of help.

The boxes I have seen have 8 different private IPTV services already listed in the server panel - you pick one you want to try and pay for one month. If you're not happy you ask to switch and they will try to match you with a server that has the channels you want to watch. You don't have to input the server URL yourself - it is already in there so they just make the switch on their panel and you're good to go.

Kodi can be pretty intimidating to set up for some people - even people fairly computer literate. Even if someone sets it up for you - it is not like a legal receiver or a private IPTV server where you can browse up and down the guide to find the channel you want to watch. You have to do a bit of searching and McGivering to get to where you want to go.

Kodi will give you more options - but it is not for everyone. I'll take the stick shift - but some people want the automatic :-)

[Nostradamus]

well they are cutting their own throats in the process. The people that don't want to learn should do without or get a cable sub and be done with it. Besides they always have Netflix. What gets me is they sub to one of these services and when the server goes down for whatever reason then they are on the forums whining. Nothing to do with the forums, let them PM their dealer and let him deal with it. These forums are for support of hardware and not designed to be the complaint dept of some 3rd party entity. The other thing these people don't realize is when the server goes down for some reason they have a black tv. If they learned to do it the old fashioned way they can kick back and watch it from a dozen or more different sources in what ever resolution they want and if it should happen to be down on their favorite source just move on to the next one.

[c8rbk1ng]

Kodi can be pretty intimidating to set up for some people - even people fairly computer literate. Even if someone sets it up for you - it is not like a legal receiver or a private IPTV server where you can browse up and down the guide to find the channel you want to watch. You have to do a bit of searching and McGivering to get to where you want to go.

Kodi will give you more options - but it is not for everyone. I'll take the stick shift - but some people want the automatic :-)

I take it you don't have Kodi set up on any of your boxes or if you do you don't use it because there are 4 or 5 good guides you can integrate and use to "browse up and down" to choose a channel you want to watch...just like a Legal Providers guide, no McGivering :)

[jedi]

I've seen the guides but we all know they are not like a legal receiver or the good private IPTV services.

I love my TV Addons - guess I shouldn't say Kodi anymore - as it's fully loaded :-) - but there are times when I just want to sit down and watch one of my legal receivers or one of my IPTV/IKS private services because they are the only ones that have a particular channel that I want to watch.

I get your point Nostradamus - but we are talking about two different demographics - I also hate the whiners and complainers who think they are entitled to uninterupted TV because they forked over a few bucks to some on line dealer.

I am talking about the IPTV/IKS users who don't have a clue what a forum is and don't know what google is. They may be elderly people - or maybe in their opinion they have better things to do than stare at a computer screen 5 hours a day. If a guy buys a service online from someone here at this site or from another site - they shouldn't come here complaining about freezing or their server being down. They should be going to the guy they paid and complain to him. If he can't fix it or make it better - they have the power of the purse and can and should look elsewhere.

My point is that the guys selling IPTV/IKS services serve a purpose. In my area not many people buy these services online - they hear about it from their family, friends, neighbours and coworkers. It doesn't take long for a dealer's reputation to plummet if he doesn't treat his clients fairly - once he loses his rep he might as well close up shop. So you won't see these type of people in here moaning and groaning about their service. A lot of people prefer to pay a good dealer a few bucks to make recommendations and to set up their service. They don't want to be a jack of all trades.

I don't mind helping people here, or at any site, who want to learn. They can ask me anything and I won't get upset - there really aren't any dumb questions. If they refuse to listen to reason or start whining and complaining - then I usually say "Hasta La Vista".

I like the old days where we used to come to sites like this to learn - there doesn't seem to be much teaching going on anymore and not much learning.

[Nostradamus]

I get your point Nostradamus - but we are talking about two different demographics - I also hate the whiners and complainers who think they are entitled to uninterupted TV because they forked over a few bucks to some on line dealer.

I am talking about the IPTV/IKS users who don't have a clue what a forum is and don't know what google is. They may be elderly people - or maybe in their opinion they have better things to do than stare at a computer screen 5 hours a day. If a guy buys a service online from someone here at this site or from another site - they shouldn't come here complaining about freezing or their server being down. They should be going to the guy they paid and complain to him. If he can't fix it or make it better - they have the power of the purse and can and should look elsewhere.

No we are not talking about different groups at all. They are all one and the same.

Honestly how many elderly people do you know who don't have a clue about the internet and yet have high speed internet just for streaming? If that is the case they may as well take the money they are spending on internet and for an IPTV service and get a cable sub and stay legal.

How many people have internet and do not know what Google or Bing is?

And they are too busy to take a few hours online to learn something but they have 6 hours a day to sit down and watch TV?

Power of the purse? What the hell is that? Easy to say that after they paid for 6 months service and are dis-satisfied after 2 weeks. Maybe they should get the service first and make their payment at the end of the month instead.

Obviously the people you are selling to are all nursing home patients that also happen to have high speed open WIFI available to them.

PUH-LEASE save your sales pitches and rhetoric for the ignorant people because those of us with any common sense at all know you don't have to buy the cow when the milk is free.

As for the "teaching and learning" on the forums there is still a lot of it but for the most part any question out there has been answered a thousand times before. In my business I not only warranty any parts, I also warranty my workmanship and I also advise my customers on ways to prevent similar problems in the future. Now if they refuse to listen and it fails again that is not my problem. If they follow my advice then they have "learned" something from my "teachings".

Teaching is what I am doing right now for those who want to learn. I am telling them they do have other options as opposed to buying a overly-priced little black box pre-loaded with a bunch of broken or soon to be broken addons. Hopefully, some people took some time to read this thread and have learned something. Maybe it is time resellers started learning as well.

[c8rbk1ng]

I've seen the guides but we all know they are not like a legal receiver or the good private IPTV services.

I love my TV Addons - guess I shouldn't say Kodi anymore - as it's fully loaded :-) - but there are times when I just want to sit down and watch one of my legal receivers or one of my IPTV/IKS private services because they are the only ones that have a particular channel that I want to watch.
How so? The guide I use is exactly like the Dish guide and it can be integrated with a number of addons. The only channel I can't find that I would like to occasionally watch is GSN, but I must admit I haven't really searched for it.

[jedi]

No we are not talking about different groups at all. They are all one and the same.
Honestly how many elderly people do you know who don't have a clue about the internet and yet have high speed internet just for streaming? I guess we just live in different worlds Nostradamus :-) I can name over 20 people in my own family that have internet just to do email and facebook so they can keep up with what's going on with their extended family and friends - for them it is enjoyable.
It is not just the elderly that don't use the interent like you and I do - or like most of the people in this forum.
I live in a border city with a population of over 200,000 and well over 15% of the households use either IKS or IPTV as their main TV. There are over 35,000 whose main language is neither English or French - so IPTV/IKS is a way for them to stay connected with what is going on in their homeland. Many of these people buy internet just for IPTV/IKS and a VOIP phone to call back home.
In our area there are stores that sell these services openly and there are hundreds of small entrepreneurs selling boxes, installing dishes, cables and interent and IPTV/IKS services. In my world people don't go online to buy these things - they go to the local store or to a friend, neighbour or coworker. They don't want to or need to spend hours on a forum trying to learn something that is foreign to them. They are happy with the way the system works - everything is word of mouth and the bad guys don't last long.




If that is the case they may as well take the money they are spending on internet and for an IPTV service and get a cable sub and stay legal.Cost of unlimited high speed interent plus IKS/IPT service $70 per month. Cost of a legal subscription to get the ethnic, network, sports, PPV movies and events and other channels they watch would be well over $150 monthly.
They still need the interent for their email, facebook and VOIP phone but could save $30 bucks or so if they didn't use high speed, unlimited.



How many people have internet and do not know what Google or Bing is?
And they are too busy to take a few hours online to learn something but they have 6 hours a day to sit down and watch TV?
Google or Bing is a little different than going to a forum or Youtube to watch and learn something.
Learning something via computer may be easy for someone like you or me - to others it is not so easy. We may be able to jTag a receiver, unloop a card, install a dish or program a receiver in our sleep - but a lot of these people didn't get to enjoy all of that fun stuff :-)
I could teach someone how to pull the keys from a receiver, set up a card server and set up a cache server with load balancer so they could do their own IKS. To me it is fun - but I think most would rather pay someone to do it for them.


Power of the purse? What the hell is that? Easy to say that after they paid for 6 months service and are dis-satisfied after 2 weeks. Maybe they should get the service first and make their payment at the end of the month instead.Why would anyone pay for 6 months? I believe there are a lot of good services you can buy for a small monthly fee - probably less than two would spend at McDonalds for a burger, fries and drink.
I don't hear a lot of complaints about dealers stiffing people - it may happen but I don't think that is a major issue.
I think a lot of dealers have multiple services available and will switch you from one service to another if there are problems or you are not happy.



Obviously the people you are selling to are all nursing home patients that also happen to have high speed open WIFI available to them.
PUH-LEASE save your sales pitches and rhetoric for the ignorant people because those of us with any common sense at all know you don't have to buy the cow when the milk is free.Did I ever offer to sell you or anyone here anything?? Check your facts - it never happened and never will.

No sales pitch on my part - I have nothing to sell.
I don't believe the people that prefer to pay a dealer for a service are "ignorant" and those that don't pay have "more common sense". Just because some people either can't or prefer not to learn something that "you" learned and are proficient at - does not make them "ignorant". I think most people associate that word with an incapacity of knowing - it's pretty rude and aggresive.

I don't climb my neighbour's fence and milk his cow - I prefer to go to the grocerie store for my milk.
It costs a little more but to me it is worth it :-)


As for the "teaching and learning" on the forums there is still a lot of it but for the most part any question out there has been answered a thousand times before.I agree with that last part 100%



In my business I not only warranty any parts, I also warranty my workmanship and I also advise my customers on ways to prevent similar problems in the future. Now if they refuse to listen and it fails again that is not my problem. If they follow my advice then they have "learned" something from my "teachings".

Teaching is what I am doing right now for those who want to learn. I am telling them they do have other options as opposed to buying a overly-priced little black box pre-loaded with a bunch of broken or soon to be broken addons. Hopefully, some people took some time to read this thread and have learned something. Maybe it is time resellers started learning as well.I agree Nostradamus - you do a great job teaching and explaining the other options available.

If you are on this forum or another similar forum - then chances are you here to learn or are a reseller or you are having a problem with a reseller or a paid service. You probably already have a box and a paid subscription - all efforts to convince them that they should leave the dark side of the "paid IKS/IPTV" world and go to the "free" light side may be falling on deaf ears. Some people just like to live on the dark side.

The resellers could avoid a lot of problems if they kept their channel lists up to date and notified people if certain channels are freezing or the EPG is missing - stuff like that.
A lot of resellers blame freezing or missing channels on the end user's internet or software setup. I'm sure that is true in some cases - but if 3 or 4 different guys are getting freezing on the same channels, same service and same time - then maybe the reseller should honestly test the channel himself. If it appears to be a server issue maybe it should be posted somewhere for that service.
I think that would help with half the problems/questions.

[jedi]

I think the orignal question asked by recyclebean has been answered and the subject has been changed to the pros and cons of free Kodi - vs - paid IKS/IPTV.

Moving on here :-)

[Nostradamus]

I guess we just live in different worlds Nostradamus :-) I can name over 20 people in my own family that have internet just to do email and facebook so they can keep up with what's going on with their extended family and friends - for them it is enjoyable.

If you are on this forum or another similar forum - then chances are you here to learn or are a reseller or you are having a problem with a reseller or a paid service. You probably already have a box and a paid subscription - all efforts to convince them that they should leave the dark side of the "paid IKS/IPTV" world and go to the "free" light side may be falling on deaf ears. Some people just like to live on the dark side.

The resellers could avoid a lot of problems if they kept their channel lists up to date and notified people if certain channels are freezing or the EPG is missing - stuff like that.
A lot of resellers blame freezing or missing channels on the end user's internet or software setup. I'm sure that is true in some cases - but if 3 or 4 different guys are getting freezing on the same channels, same service and same time - then maybe the reseller should honestly test the channel himself. If it appears to be a server issue maybe it should be posted somewhere for that service.
I think that would help with half the problems/questions.

well I could get fancy and bust it all up like you did but nope I have better things to do with my time than nitpick but I will respond to these three quotes.


1 - I guess we just live in different worlds Nostradamus :-) I can name over 20 people in my own family that have internet just to do email and facebook so they can keep up with what's going on with their extended family and friends - for them it is enjoyable.

Cool! send them over because if that is the limit of their net savvy I can make some good coin off of them as well. A good portion of my business depends on people just like them :)

If you are on this forum or another similar forum - then chances are you here to learn or are a reseller or you are having a problem with a reseller or a paid service. You probably already have a box and a paid subscription - all efforts to convince them that they should leave the dark side of the "paid IKS/IPTV" world and go to the "free" light side may be falling on deaf ears. Some people just like to live on the dark side.

Don't be assuming about me. You know what ASSUME does? It makes an ass out of U and Me but I have never bought or sold any codes and I am not a dealer. I don't need to be. I am here because I have a lot of friends here. I am staff because I know how sat works and I also know how the net works because I am an IT guy. So you got it half right, you made an ass out of U


The resellers could avoid a lot of problems if they kept their channel lists up to date and notified people if certain channels are freezing or the EPG is missing - stuff like that.
A lot of resellers blame freezing or missing channels on the end user's internet or software setup. I'm sure that is true in some cases - but if 3 or 4 different guys are getting freezing on the same channels, same service and same time - then maybe the reseller should honestly test the channel himself. If it appears to be a server issue maybe it should be posted somewhere for that service.
I think that would help with half the problems/questions.

What would really help is shutting down all the IPTV support forums and you could notify everybody by PM or email whenever something changes and no I am not singling you out but every reseller. For the most part, the majority of your customers are not net savvy enough to navigate a forum so why post it here? At the same time they are familiar with FB and email so maybe that should be the obvious place for updates.

[Nostradamus]

I think the orignal question asked by recyclebean has been answered and the subject has been changed to the pros and cons of free Kodi - vs - paid IKS/IPTV.

Moving on here :-)

That is the only thing you posted that made any sense and I agree with. It was answered at post#8, long before you decided to try and get some free advertising. One thing is you do not close threads here. Staff does and you are not getting the last word. I AM !!!! CLOSED !!!!