Echelon court docs

[HammerSet]

kudos to A_Z_A for the docs


Vancouver Registry
S- 1052 65

In the Supreme Court of British Columbia

Dish Network LLC, EchoStar Technologies LLC and
NagraStar LLC,
Plaintiffs
and
Justin Tabish, Justin Tabish d.b.a. ***.(edited).**,
John Doe, Jane Doe and other persons unknown who have
conspired with the named Defendants,
Defendants

[dannyswitzer]

very interesting reading. a good history reading on fta...

[bigdummy]

Well, should be interesting to see how this turns out , a US company in a civil suit against a canadian individual where the the US DMCA is does not apply

[JCO]

Umm DMCA is not only a US law.. It has been adopted by many if not most countries internationaly including Canada..

[dishuser]

very interesting reading. a good history reading on fta...

this has nothing to do with fta

[fifties]

Yes, I believe it is illegal for a Canadian to intercept unauthorized programming regardless of country of origin. But that would be a violation to be heard in their version of a criminal court,...

[HammerSet]

this has nothing to do with fta

iks only, or card related if they dig from n2 time :tehe:

there is the box, i dont know what it is

page 22 of "S-105265-Notice of Civil Claim-07232010.pdf"


(b) to establish, install, activate, operate, possess, distribute, offer for sale, sell, or modify equipment and devices, including the Dark Angel IKS Servers and iCEBOXES, or components thereof,

[JCO]

How can you mix tricks withlegal proceedings ...ROFLMAO

[HammerSet]

a trick from echelon, nahhh, never , lmao <br />
<br />
<br />
what about if the iks server was in usa ?

[HammerSet]

How can you mix tricks withlegal proceedings ...ROFLMAO

trick with an "s" like in tricks, maybe

but trick with no "s" i would be surprise :tehe:

[fifties]

Or maybe there is a trick here, lol.
What I was referring to, was when Dave was able to prosecute in Canadian courts, at least AFA sellers of "pirate equipment"; unloopers, bootboards, programmers, etc. I don't remember if they got judgments against Canadian customers of those items, however.

[kenkell1]

I would say ECH is screwed either way. Gotta feel for the guy because he really was a pretty damn smart guy and I hope it works out for him.

[HammerSet]

I would say ECH is screwed either way. Gotta feel for the guy because he really was a pretty damn smart guy and I hope it works out for him.

agreed for the human side


for the business side, he have steal code from good peeps

he was hated for that

[kenkell1]

agreed for the human side


for the business side, he have steal code from good peeps

he was hated for that
hearsay ;)

[jrose]

Hopefully this doesn't set a dangerous precedence...could dampen the private servers niche? Or was this just a sloppy operation that didn't distance itself from the arm of the law?

[fifties]

Hopefully this doesn't set a dangerous precedence...could dampen the private servers niche? Or was this just a sloppy operation that didn't distance itself from the arm of the law?
Has it been revealed how he was discovered?


what happens to end users in this case, sine its private server thing
DN has asked for a list of end-users, per the documents, so they apparently don't have it by their own means.

Once/if they get it, it will be interesting to see if they then go after the end-users. I still however don't see where they would have any standing against anyone but U.S. residents.

[HammerSet]

hearsay ;)

nope, live see it at the pertaining forum

it was near 2005-2006

[HammerSet]

what happens to end users in this case, sine its private server thing

it is realy hard to figure out the d!sh agenda on that

to date, they have go after the big fish

it didn't have stop iks

one can only speculate

if a list of end user have been gathered, the judge will prolly say the same thing as for the VS trial


for example lastly in trust and associate, the same restriciotn apply fro the user list


However, in accordance with the limitations imposed by the District Court in the underlying action, any use by the Plaintiffs of the purchaser information obtained pursuant to the subject subpoena shall be limited to this action and not used to initiate litigation, to threaten potential litigation,
or to seek to resolve potential litigation, based upon suspected signal piracy. (S.D. Cal.Case No. 3:07-cv-01273-W-AJB, DE # 93 at 8)

so d!sh cannot use the trust and associate list to initiate etc

i will upload the docs, for all to see

[eth0]

Who do you know got away from each of the lawsuits we have seen so far? <br />
Is there any reason to believe any of the lawsuits is unfounded and silly? ( and I do not mean what someone think it should...

[fifties]

Who do you know got away from each of the lawsuits we have seen so far?
Is there any reason to believe any of the lawsuits is unfounded and silly? ( and I do not mean what someone think it should be,I mean how the law see and dictate)
I bet their lawyers are well aware of what they are doing,they didn't **** up yet.
Well let's not get ahead of ourselves...First they have to do discovery on the defendants, and then, if the ID's of the server customers become known to them, it will be interesting to see if they DO go after them, and whether they attempt to go after only U.S. residents, or Canadians as well.

I don't disagree that their legal team has shown to have all their legal ducks in a row, and I couched my statement with the mention of "tricks" to that end.

Remember, this is all new ground; so far end users of IKS have not been summoned to court, only suppliers...So far...

[HammerSet]

lawsuits is unfounded and silly?

the only thing i found "unfounded and silly?" is the money they ask from the defendants

almost the time d!sh know they will get zero $$, but they put a big fine

why ? i believe it is scare tactics



I bet their lawyers are well aware of what they are doing

they are not perfect, they already have make mistake

1 exemple


Liquid Web, Inc. ("Liquid Web") has confirmed that they are the web hoster for the Doe
Defendants and that they are in possession of identifying information concerning them. (Ferguson
Decl. T| 3, Exs. 3-4.) Liquid Web will not provide Plaintiffs with the Doe Defendants' identifying
information until Liquid Web is served with a subpoena




Further, the Court finds that Plaintiffs’ counsel failed to thoroughly meet and confer and make every effort to resolve this
dispute without the necessity of court intervention, in violation of this Court’s Chambers Rules. Therefore,
Plaintiff’s Ex Parte App. is DENIED without prejudice.
DATED: June 21, 2010

[andyb2]

Umm DMCA is not only a US law.. It has been adopted by many if not most countries internationaly including Canada..

We have some laws but DMCA is not in Canada.....yet,and hopefully never.ACTA is taking a beating and the US aint happy bout it lol.To bad.

[HammerSet]

We have some laws but DMCA is not in Canada.....yet,and hopefully never.ACTA is taking a beating and the US aint happy bout it lol.To bad.

there is 2 if not 3 open case where d!sh kinda team up with beverly against dealer

- Echelon

and


SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE – ONTARIO
(COMMERCIAL LIST)
RE: DISH NETWORK LLC, ECHOSTAR TECHNOLOGIES LLC AND
NAGRASTAR LLC (Plaintiffs) v. RAVINDRANAUTH RAMKISSOON
a.k.a RAVIN RAMKISSOON, RAVINDRANAUGH RAMKISSOON

[eth0]

That is not really a mistake. <br />
They probably know they won't get the customer's database,but they must ask anyway,just in case they find a judge that is favorable to their cause. <br />
Nothing of what...

[andyb2]

there is 2 if not 3 open case where d!sh kinda team up with beverly against dealer

- Echelon

and

Still nothing to do with DMCA.You get caught stealing a signal in Canada you go to court.Dont see how DMCA has anything to do with it.We allready had laws for that before DMCA

[HammerSet]

i was not talking about customer list in my post <br />
<br />
Liquid Web, Inc, is an isp that d!sh have ask the court to be subpoena to give identity of 2 SV dealer <br />
<br />
court have denied the request, denied...

[HammerSet]

Still nothing to do with DMCA.You get caught stealing a signal in Canada you go to court.Dont see how DMCA has anything to do with it.We allready had laws for that before DMCA

i don't really know

i was talking if you steal d!sh signal from canada

and about dealer not end user

do you have any closed case in mind from DTV time for example ?

thank you !

[andyb2]

No Canadian end users were ever charged in the DTV thing as far as I know.As far as stealing diks signal from Canada its still illegal.Its been to superior court and it is illegal.While actually...

[HammerSet]

agreed, no end user, only dealer from DTV time <br />
it is not a matter of end user, it is matter of dealer <br />
<br />
<br />
about the grey market, i'm not sure if i understand your point of view <br />
i believe there is...

[ian_b]

Has it been revealed how he was discovered?




From rom10x forums seized and mentions of neighborhood related events .

[JAZMINE]

Not smart enough, Should of kept better car of his client record. Now all the statements from these people are for sure going to do him in.

[JAZMINE]

Has it been revealed how he was discovered?


DN has asked for a list of end-users, per the documents, so they apparently don't have it by their own means.

Once/if they get it, it will be interesting to see if they then go after the end-users. I still however don't see where they would have any standing against anyone but U.S. residents.
From what I hear they have it We will probaly hear more about it in a couple months?

[montanamom]

going after endusers would be an astronomical event and a COMPLETE waste of resources. no matter the jurisdiction. Period

[fifties]

going after endusers would be an astronomical event and a COMPLETE waste of resources. no matter the jurisdiction. Period
Not really. Dave hired an Ambulance Chasing firm to send out 170,000 letters, and followed up with legal action in about 10% of the cases. Now whether he sold the accounts to the law firm, used them for legal representation, or a mixture of both, it was an apparently lucrative venture, since I am sure he won far more than he lost.

The larger picture though, is that that action successfully squashed any desire to offer a public hack of the Pee4, assuming one existed.

If Charlie should follow suit, it would primarily be for an adaption of the latter reason, IOW to intimidate ppl from signing on to IKS servers.

[chickenman]

Love reading the posts from you lawyers....lmao

[lemming]

9534
9535
9536
9537
9538

These in Texas

[scotty25]

"D*** Network contracts for and purchases the distribution rights...
12. The works broadcast on the D*** Network platform are copyrighted. D***
Network has the authority of the copyright holders to protect these works from unauthorized reception and viewing"

I'd like to see the cost for the copyright redistrubtion contracts for NASA , PBS and most of the OTA channels.

If I remember from the *TV card days there was a judgement that owning a modded receiver card wasn't enough. Didn't *tv end up paying all the defendants costs +

Also *tv was required ordered to stop sending out "threat letters" if memory still serves

[Sp0iler]

It was found that the loaders had more than one use besides hacking Dave.
There was only one thing to be gained by connecting to the Dark Angel server.
IMO, these people are going down.
They should have used better judgment and more research.
Hooking to a server in Canada to do what some here do, is just foolish.
Now they'll pay for that mistake.

[itsmine]

Notice, they all live in Texas.

[1bit]

Notice, they all live in Texas.

My friend in Florida got a letter last week... DN wants $3500 from him.

[Bad_Teacher]

If I remember from the *TV card days there was a judgement that owning a modded receiver card wasn't enough. Didn't *tv end up paying all the defendants costs +

Also *tv was required ordered to stop sending out "threat letters" if memory still serves



You remember incorrectly. There were alot of rumors of that happening, but it never happened. You can check the legalrights org forum and see what went on.

[profit]

We have some laws but DMCA is not in Canada.....yet,and hopefully never.ACTA is taking a beating and the US aint happy bout it lol.To bad.Canada does have the CMPDA xxxlaws.justice.gc.ca/showtdm/cs/r-2

There is a Solicitor that specializes in Satellite piracy, His name is Gary Ruff you can google him.
Accordenly to Cornell university of Law, tittle 47- subchapter v1 605 on Unauthorized publication or use of communications.

(a) practices prohibited.
Except as authorized by chapter 119, tille 18 No person receiving , assisting in transmitting or publish the existence, content, purport, effect or meaning therefor, except through authorized channels of transmission or reception.

etc

Now here is the
(b) EXCEPTION
The provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall NOT apply to the interception or receipt by any individual, or the assisting
(including the manufacture or sale) of such interception or receipt , of any SATELLITE cable programming for private viewing if-(1) the programming involved is not encrypted; and
(2)

(a) an marketing system is not established under which-
(i) an agent or agents have been lawfully designated for the purpose of authorizing private viewing by individuals, and

(ii) such autorization is available to the individual involved from the appropriate agent or agents;or

(B) a marketing system decribed in subparagraph (A) is established and the individuals receiving such programming has
obtained authorization for private viewing under that system

C/P Cornell University of Law

D*sh or DTV are NOT allowed to sell programming in Canada

[profit]

My friend in Florida got a letter last week... DN wants $3500 from him.
The Law on this one is; Max $2000.00 and/ or imprisoned for not more than 6 Months, or both.And direct the recovery of the full cost, including awarding reasonable attorneys'fee to the aggrieved party who prevails.

[Bugsy]

I can say that they are sending letters in WI for sure, from a law firm in Houston. A demand for $3500. In this economy who has $3500 to write a check with? Not I.

[Bugsy]

The Law on this one is; Max $2000.00 and/ or imprisoned for not more than 6 Months, or both.And direct the recovery of the full cost, including awarding reasonable attorneys'fee to the aggrieved party who prevails.

Where do you get the $2k figure from? While still a huge amount it would be more manageable and reasonable. Unlike DTv Dish has more than just a card reader purchase from these folks, they have a purchase for a service that supplied keys.

[profit]

Where do you get the $2k figure from? While still a huge amount it would be more manageable and reasonable. Unlike DTv Dish has more than just a card reader purchase from these folks, they have a purchase for a service that supplied keys.

Penalties; civil actions; remedies; attorney's fee and cost' computation of damages; regulation by the State and local authorities

(1) Any person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned for not more than 6 months, or both.( for private use)

(2) Any person who violates subsection (a) of this section, willfully and for the purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage or private financial gain shall be fined not more than $50,000 or imprisoned for not more than 2 Years, or both, for the first such conviction and shall be fined not more than $100,000 or imprisioned for not more than 5 Years or both, for any subsequent conviction.

c/P Cornell University of Law . 47 USC 605 Unauthorized use of Communications.

[royg6852]

I know of one delivered in AR today, and you're right it's $3500

[Bugsy]

I would assume the $3500 figure is to get you to avoid the 6 months in jail part of that and a record. No?
I highly doubt they will accept a counter offer of $2k to a letter received though I could be wrong. I don't know if they
would consider a negotiation of any kind.

[profit]

I would assume the $3500 figure is to get you to avoid the 6 months in jail part of that and a record. No?
I highly doubt they will accept a counter offer of $2k to a letter received though I could be wrong. I don't know if they
would consider a negotiation of any kind.

The demand for $3500 most likely include attorney's fee ,and/ or what ever they deemed recovery of actual damages.

[royg6852]

would you say a settlement letter is something to be ignored at this point?

[Bugsy]

would you say a settlement letter is something to be ignored at this point?

No! Ignore it once they know you have it and it will be referred to a local attorney who will file to have you hauled into district court. They will at that point seek the maximum they feel they are entitled to and you will be at the mercy of the judge. You will also pay all the lawyer and court costs. Unlike DTv where there was plausible denial as they mainly went after hardware purchasers there is no denying that what was purchased from DA was a cw service. In court you are almost certain to lose. In the case of the person who got his letter in WI they have everything they need. He will call sometime this week to see if he can get the amount reduced (not likely) or a payment plan of some sort or at least more time to pay (he and his wife are both unemployed along with nearly 10% of Americans) but long and short is he will pay rather than go to court. To ignore at this point is futile and as dumb as not covering the tracks when signing up for DA's service. They picked the $3500 figure for good reason, it will cost you at least that much to take it to court no doubt and there will be legal record of it to boot, Seems like fessing up and paying will at the very least save public record allowing you to bury the mistake and get on with life.

[profit]

would you say a settlement letter is something to be ignored at this point?
That depends on the burden of proof ,presented in that letter.

To tell you the truth, D#sh dont care about personal predicaments or feelings.
I doubt if they will make an compromise.

[Bugsy]

Yup, Dish don't care, neither do attorneys have hearts. He will no doubt be taking out a loan with huge interest to pay the lump sum within the 30 days and rue the day he ever heard of DA.

[profit]

Everyone knows that Private IKS is not safe, to go ahead and still do it, is taking a huge gamble. Your paying other people to
steal Satellite signals for you. Everyone knows that risk before they start.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

The $3,500 is an offer to settle without going to court. If you decide not to take it and end up in court they will try seek an award more then that. Whether they get it or not is up to the court. If you don't show up then they will get a default judgment and you can count on that being more then $3,500 as the court would probably grant what they are seeking since there was no defense arguement on it. If you decide to go to court then lawyer fees would be substantial. Personally I would say if your going to roll the dice the people who do should be ones who are prepared to defend themselves.




GS2

[Pollypurabred]

This has been asked many times: How can one prove that you have received notification unless "signature required" is either signed for and/or the deliverer testifies that the person refusing to sign.

And then I would suggest that proof has to be offered that one lives at the served address at the time of so-called infraction?

If this is a civil case which I believe it is, and you are POSITIVELY SURE that you have absolutely not left any bread crumbs, then good luck.


The $3,500 is an offer to settle without going to court. If you decide not to take it and end up in court they will try seek an award more then that. Whether they get it or not is up to the court. If you don't show up then they will get a default judgment and you can count on that being more then $3,500 as the court would probably grant what they are seeking since there was no defense arguement on it. If you decide to go to court then lawyer fees would be substantial. Personally I would say if your going to roll the dice the people who do should be ones who are prepared to defend themselves.




GS2

[profit]

This has been asked many times: How can one prove that you have received notification unless "signature required" is either signed for and/or the deliverer testifies that the person refusing to sign.

And then I would suggest that proof has to be offered that one lives at the served address at the time of so-called infraction?

If this is a civil case which I believe it is, and you are POSITIVELY SURE that you have absolutely not left any bread crumbs, then good luck.

You have a point, but you dont know what they have as proof.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

This has been asked many times: How can one prove that you have received notification unless "signature required" is either signed for and/or the deliverer testifies that the person refusing to sign.

And then I would suggest that proof has to be offered that one lives at the served address at the time of so-called infraction?

If this is a civil case which I believe it is, and you are POSITIVELY SURE that you have absolutely not left any bread crumbs, then good luck.


If a defendant comes to court with that defense then its likely the plaintiff will try to deal with it somehow. Its not likely they would not be expecting defenses to come up like that. They will go through discovery if it moves towards trial. Defendants can be deposed on affidavits stating that. Not trying to be difficult but people have to realize its not going to simple in court with a plaintiff like this.



GS2

[scotty25]

Just a couple of question for the armchair lawyers?

Dick Net is trying to do what, piss people off? make examples. You are unemployed out of money living on assistance. you couldn't afford their ****ty service anyhow what are their damages? how are there going to colllect it?

You have money and subscribe to their lousey service this as a true hobby again what is their damages. you watched an HBO movie?

I can drag your ugly ass into court because I don't like they way you look, doesn't mean i am going to collect anthing except a pissed off judge for wasting his time.

Maybe if all the subscribers sued Dick Net everytime their TV went off to recover the loss of service (class action would be inorder) they would be more concerned about their service than the few hundreds they are going to get for the bad publicity.

They are bleeding money: tivo, bad economy, bad business management, zillion dollar card change that was hacked before it was released. and now they want to put a band aid on it after they "shot them selves in the foot"

HIJACKED THREAD -- but I am on a roll!
Why doesn't someone wake up give out a few free channels to registerd FTA boxes & sell the advertising. Let people buy channels al-la-cart. DBS needs to smell the roses or the internet will eat their lunch a soon as we start expanding bandwith & compression techniques. 99% of the shows are reruns already on the internet - not to mention Netflix

[Bugsy]

Hating Dis* for getting caught stealing won't help. What can they get after a judgement? Let's start with 6 months in jail just for the original penalty. Don't pay anything? Jail time for contempt of court. Fight it and lose? The $3500 goes much higher 50k, 60k higher? They don't care about your pain, they want a pound of flesh and if they found you they have more than enough evidence to assure victory. If you got a letter you will have to beg borrow or steal to pay that $3500 or rest assured you will get a much larger judgement against you and refusing to pay claiming you are destitute won't help. Odds are you'll be bunking with Bubba for awhile.
If it was my business and folks by the untold thousands were stealing my service I'd hang them by the balls if I found them too. Charlie seems to have a noose around a lot of ball sacks these days and he is showing no mercy.

[scotty25]

Now were changing to criminal law from civil law. DN can really put you in jail 6 months with just a threat letter

I must have been asleep when ther were talking about debtor prisons in class. Judge can make you comply but you still cant get blood from a turnip.

6 mos going to jails that are turning felons loose. "hey what you in for- watching food network"

If you are destitute & need criminal representation the state would be cheaper to pay the $3500 than your defense bill

look at the bright side you have free cable in jail

Who pays the real cable bill-advertisers. Why doesn't sat companies wake up, more people are starting to watch streaming tv on their ipads.

Just wait till charlie F's up and screws the wrong guy's due process - TIVO lawsuit - priceless

[profit]

Now were changing to criminal law from civil law. DN can really put you in jail 6 months with just a threat letter

I must have been asleep when ther were talking about debtor prisons in class. Judge can make you comply but you still cant get blood from a turnip.

6 mos going to jails that are turning felons loose. "hey what you in for- watching food network"

If you are destitute & need criminal representation the state would be cheaper to pay the $3500 than your defense bill

look at the bright side you have free cable in jail

Who pays the real cable bill-advertisers. Why doesn't sat companies wake up, more people are starting to watch streaming tv on their ipads.

Just wait till charlie F's up and screws the wrong guy's due process - TIVO lawsuit - priceless

Maybe You should be more informed, and check in the right places before you voice a opinion.

[Bugsy]

Scotty, I guess you'll be the test subject. While the "letter" is a demand under the civil portion, this is a CRIMINAL offense which they will pursue punishable by up to 6 months per offense. Logged in 20 times? 10 years. 80 log ins? 40 years. Of course you won't get locked up for so much as a year no doubt but you can get some time behind bars and not for watching Food Network, but for STEALING. There is no "debtors prison" but there is what is called contempt of court. A judge orders you to pay and you don't, you are in contempt. They don't provide lawyers for you in civil cases. You will rant and rave all the way to your cell. Good luck with a lawsuit. They don't need luck. A judgement in their favor is certain.
Note, I'm not an advocate for their action nor do I feel no pity for your situation, I do, but you are going nowhere with this. You haven't got a leg to stand on and your best option is to find a way to pay your debt and take your spanking same as everyone else who they catch will.

[fifties]

Ya know, there is so much misinformation being tossed around in this thread, the DN employee assigned to monitor FTA sites must be rolling over in laughter when he cruises this. <br />
<br />
I just did a...

[dishuser]

not in florida
just ask bob or phil

[fifties]

I DID mention the Viewsat 3...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Scotty, I guess you'll be the test subject. While the "letter" is a demand under the civil portion, this is a CRIMINAL offense which they will pursue punishable by up to 6 months per offense. Logged in 20 times? 10 years. 80 log ins? 40 years. Of course you won't get locked up for so much as a year no doubt but you can get some time behind bars and not for watching Food Network, but for STEALING. There is no "debtors prison" but there is what is called contempt of court. A judge orders you to pay and you don't, you are in contempt. They don't provide lawyers for you in civil cases. You will rant and rave all the way to your cell. Good luck with a lawsuit. They don't need luck. A judgement in their favor is certain.
Note, I'm not an advocate for their action nor do I feel no pity for your situation, I do, but you are going nowhere with this. You haven't got a leg to stand on and your best option is to find a way to pay your debt and take your spanking same as everyone else who they catch will.


While in theory criminal prosecution can be pursued with a complaint to law enforcement it is a real stretch to think that would happen in my opinion. Its highly unlikely law enforcement will be motivated to go after some end user. This is not a Kwak situation where they were able to get law enforcement motivated to pursue that. The criminal bar for proof to be successful for criminal conviction requires much more then civil success in court. I don't see law enforcement spending time/ resources on investigating end users.



GS2

[dishuser]

I DID mention the Viewsat 3...

only one that really suffered was in cali

[fifties]

Right...You forgot to mention that initially. ;)

[Broomer]

One last thing Fifties

There is no way to "ask for control words" unless you have a receiver connected to a dish.
asking for the CW is proof you have a dish and decrypter(set top box) decrypting signal.

how else would you know what to ask for?

lol
B

[dishuser]

One last thing Fifties

There is no way to "ask for control words" unless you have a receiver connected to a dish.
asking for the CW is proof you have a dish and decrypter(set top box) decrypting signal.

how else would you know what to ask for?

lol
B

hey imposter
no dish is needed to get CW's

[el chido]

But Dik Still Needs To Threaten, Nevertheless!...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

While generally I agree with representing yourself is a mistake in this type of situation I don't necesarrily agree. You would make a mistake if you tried to represent yourself in something more...

[Broomer]

what does that have to do with what we are discussing? <br />
<br />
if you are connected to the server nagr@ is using to go after peeps you must be also connected to a dish or your STB would say searching for...

[dishuser]

are you really this stupid? <br />
no DISH is needed

[fifties]

One last thing Fifties

There is no way to "ask for control words" unless you have a receiver connected to a dish.
asking for the CW is proof you have a dish and decrypter(set top box) decrypting signal.

how else would you know what to ask for?

lol
B
You didn't read the entire post; a person can simply claim that his/her WiFi signal was apparently piggybacked, and they have no satellite receiving equipment themselves. It would then be up to DN to prove otherwise. The burden is on the plaintiff to prove his case with a preponderance of the evidence.

The basis for my suggestion, BTW, comes from a case DirecTv lost some years back, when they were challenged to prove that the defendant -whom they apparently had other goods on- actually had a satellite dish, and failed, thereby losing their case.

[dishuser]

You didn't read the entire post; a person can simply claim that his/her WiFi signal was apparently piggybacked, and they have no satellite receiving equipment themselves. It would then be up to DN to prove otherwise. The burden is on the plaintiff to prove his case with a preponderance of the evidence.

The basis for my suggestion, BTW, comes from a case DirecTv lost some years back, when they were challenged to prove that the defendant actually had a satellite dish, and failed.

not around here
it's up to you to secure wifi
they only support their modem

[fifties]

In California, it is a violation of state law to operate an unsecured WiFi setup.

That said, there hasn't been a single case of a violation, in a state of 37 million people, to go before the bench.

DN could point to it, but it would most likely do them no good AFA civil prosecution, in trying to tie the user of IKS to the individual owning the WiFi.

[Bugsy]

You didn't read the entire post; a person can simply claim that his/her WiFi signal was apparently piggybacked, and they have no satellite receiving equipment themselves. It would then be up to DN to prove otherwise. The burden is on the plaintiff to prove his case with a preponderance of the evidence.

The basis for my suggestion, BTW, comes from a case DirecTv lost some years back, when they were challenged to prove that the defendant -whom they apparently had other goods on- actually had a satellite dish, and failed, thereby losing their case.

That also presupposes that they are working off IP address alone. Anyone dumb enough to leave a name trail back to their door, say someone who used their CC to buy the service, has no defense.
As far as not thinking Dish will take criminal action, no one thought they would send letters out to end users either. They have every right, again these folks have little to no defense, and Dish is trying to teach everyone a huge lesson. I wouldn't put it past them.

[fifties]

That also presupposes that they are working off IP address alone.
Exactly.


Anyone dumb enough to leave a name trail back to their door, say someone who used their CC to buy the service, has no defense.

Correct again.

[Bugsy]

Ya know, there is so much misinformation being tossed around in this thread, the DN employee assigned to monitor FTA sites must be rolling over in laughter when he cruises this.

(LOTS OF SNIPAGE)

If you really have no money though, you can always try to represent yourself. I would -depending on what evidence they have against you- say that your WiFi was hacked, and you weren't the one receiving the control words. Another defense is to make them prove that you have both a satellite receiver and dish antenna, or obviously all the control words in the world wouldn't do you any good.

Now lets be clear about the court system; criminal matters are prosecuted by the government, fed, state, county, and can provide for jail time. DN is NOT a government entity.

DN can only prosecute their case in a civil court, and there is NO penalty that would include jail time in that forum.


I made the mistake of mixing criminal and civil. Your assessment was spot on. If they have your name from a recipt of payment, and have multiple log ons to the DN software I doubt they will have to prove a dish or receiver was in your home. There was no other purpose to use the software or pay for it other than to get CWs for decryption. You can claim you were merely studying and never once decrypted the signal to watch it but the difference between civil and criminal is huge. They don't need as much to find for the plaintive here. No jail time will occur for the civil but they will make life hell with bill collectors, a bigger fine most likely than the $3500, liens etc as was explained.

What has up to now not occurred for end users is a criminal complaint and jail time and where I blurred the line. My assumption is you can't put anything past DN at this point. IF they do have name and address, log in information coupled with IP they already have all the evidence they need for a DA to win a case without a problem. Each log in is a separate offense and I think punishable by 6 months. I wouldn't put it past the bastards to screw with anyone that won't own up or pay and forward for prosecution just to prove their point.

How much is the uncertainty and headache worth? I guess they think $3500......

[fifties]

The only ones so far to have had criminal complaints issued against them were the Viewsat 3, and there may have been a few others, but the common thread is that they were all making $ off DN's enterprise. No end user that I have heard of has gotten slapped with a summons to federal court for violation of the DMCA in regards to satellite TV.
What kind of press do you think such an effort would garner?
Talk about wasting the government's resources, and beyond that, what good would it do DN?
There may or may not be a flurry of end user letters going out for a civil settlement if DN ever gets reasonable evidence, but beyond that, I can't see the feds getting involved, unless against the owner of an IKS site who is also a U.S. resident.

[profit]

I dont know how those letters were send, but here in Canada when a letter of demand is send from a Solicitor ,it is either <br />
Registerd or Hand deliverd . for reasons you just noted. <br />
<br />
The reason...

[fifties]

When Dave sent out the estimated 170,000 letters, they simply went first class mail, with no signature by the recipient required, at least with the first attempt. <br />
<br />
<br />
I can't speak for the GWN, but...

[profit]

DN and or there solicitors have A CHOICE they can go to the authorities and ask for a theft charge, that is why there is a max of 6 months. However civil court is easier , and they might collect more...

[fifties]

There's no argument that they can't forward their evidence to a federal prosecutor, for litigation in a criminal court, but they can't pursue that themselves; only a government prosecutor can. <br />
...

[profit]

A Solicitor can go to a prosecutor( in Canada The Crown attorney) and show evidence of theft, can ask to charge that person under the Criminal code.It is up to the prosecutor (Crown attorney in...

[lemming]

There's no argument that they can't forward their evidence to a federal prosecutor, for litigation in a criminal court, but they can't pursue that themselves; only a government prosecutor can.

They did just that to the Viewsat Three, but to assume they would go to that length against an IKS viewer, and that the government would bother, seems a stretch. I can see them going after an end-user in civil, and threatening criminal if the transgression is repeated, however.

Interesting. Do you still think freedom of speech still applies to posting bins? Did you enable Hannibal to speak for you regarding myself? I doubt it, but he sure as hell was using that angle. Again I doubt it, and have a hard time understanding the motivation. I feel shamed having to say this, but if you ever have any doubts, ask our mutual friend down south.


@13X

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

There are several lawyers in the US who represented end users in the DTV lawsuits. I think the best well known from that group is the lawyer ( Albert Zarkarian ) from Florida that TDG hired. <br />
<br />
<br />
...

[lemming]

There are several lawyers in the US who represented end users in the DTV lawsuits. I think the best well known from that group is the lawyer ( Albert Zarkarian ) from Florida that TDG hired.



GS2
A good lawyer, and a friend down south.

[Lorenzo_Zambrano]

Interesting. Do you still think freedom of speech still applies to posting bins? Did you enable Hannibal to speak for you regarding myself? I doubt it, but he sure as hell was using that angle. Again I doubt it, and have a hard time understanding the motivation. I feel shamed having to say this, but if you ever have any doubts, ask our mutual friend down south.


@13X

find another scape goat senoir and btw Hanni speaks for himself as does fifties

[Lorenzo_Zambrano]

Interesting. Do you still think freedom of speech still applies to posting bins? Did you enable Hannibal to speak for you regarding myself? I doubt it, but he sure as hell was using that angle. Again I doubt it, and have a hard time understanding the motivation. I feel shamed having to say this, but if you ever have any doubts, ask our mutual friend down south.


@13X

seems you have an issue to air

[lemming]

Sure, why not? HL made many statements (obviously conjecture) It was almost like he wanted to back luna. When his conjecture to back his position, was questioned, he made statements that he used fifties as authentication. Statements like fifties thought you (me) were full of popcorn. I just want to clear the air. HL may be tax man, but I challenge anybody to discount my claims. P€@c3

[lemming]

Lol HL always trying to worm his way in! Lol

[lemming]

Lmfao Lorenzo Aka HL, damn I thought you banned him. Again, and Again. He is fun to play with lmao.

[lemming]

Since you speak for fifties, and others, pleas fill is lemmings in. Thank you,

@13X

[fifties]

Interesting. Do you still think freedom of speech still applies to posting bins?
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, the judge that determined the posting of them to be illegal most likely doesn't share the same sentiment, lol!

I would suggest that it is a constitutional law issue, and would most likely be VERY expensive to litigate. Given that bins are no longer used to emulate the DN card, it is also really no longer relevant.



Did you enable Hannibal to speak for you regarding myself? I doubt it, but he sure as hell was using that angle. Again I doubt it, and have a hard time understanding the motivation. I feel shamed having to say this, but if you ever have any doubts, ask our mutual friend down south.


@13X
Why would a big mouth like me need someone else to speak? Bwahahahaha!

BTW, he is active over at our site, if you would like to drop by and express your appreciation of his postings, hehe.

[lemming]

Oh yeah, be careful what you wish for lmfao.