Help with chosing a new AC/Furnance system.

MODs, if in wrong place please relocated to proper one. I posted here as there is already a HVAC section...tks.

HELP! Your input needed!

I am looking to replace my existing home central ac/furnace (compressor/gas) systems as they are both 20 years old. Over the last week I have had four different contractors scheduled (three have shown) and I have three more next week. As to my exiting equipment, they are both still in good working condition but I would rather schedule their demise then have to do in emergency and be at a contractors mercy. The existing systems are both Carriers and, at the time, where the top of the line; 91% AFUE and a 10.6 SEER compressor.

My house is very small at 1200 square feet but over the last few years I have insulated, installed new Anderson low e-windows and two new fiberglass entry doors. I also installed a new high MERV (12) filtration system and a bypass whole house humidifier that works off of a Robert Shaw programmable 2H/2C humidity thermostat controller.
I did do research (2 different HVAC forums and user reviews) before I started interviewing contractor and had an idea of what to ask or play dumb to.
Okay this is what I came up with and so far and to my surprise, two of the contractors have suggested the same.

York model YP9C060B12MP12 Affinity furnace (60K Btu) with Aspen A-coil and a York 2.5 ton single stage compressor which works out to an AC rating of 16 SEER/13eer and a furnace of 97% efficiency. The furnace has built in ECM blower control along with a modulated gas valve (actually gas valve modulations in 0.65 steps, not in stages). These controls work both in AC/Heat mode so this should be really cost efficient along with having great humidity control.

The Carrier model 58MVC060 Infinity ICS system furnace (60K) has a Carrier 2 ton compressor with a matching 2.5 ton A-coil, and a Carrier single stage compressor. This will work out to have AC rating of 16 SEER/12.5 eer. The furnace has a 95% efficiency rating with a 2 stage gas valve and variable speed (ECM) blower control. This package requires Carriers controller/thermostat (included) which looks like a 7" Ipad mounted on your wall (laptop/internet accessible with plug in diagnostics).
BTW the Carrier is a little more expensive, ~ 1000 bucks but they will service the units at season changes, free of charge for first 5 years, lifetime HE and 10 year compressor. York gives the same lifetime HE and 10 year compressor and 2 years parts and labor.

Both offer A-coil and other warranties when you register your units. They both offer extended warranties but at the present I am bypassing both.

If you have any feedback, comments please do so even if it is as to other systems, because I will probably decide in the next two weeks.... Reviews were not much help and none of the 20 or so companies had a rating of greater than 3 stars out of five. People only seem to list the bad points, which are okay, BUT……

You seem to have done a great product review however You may want to consider looking at Trane also !!! Lol

climate of course may be different here as opposed to where you are. I am an energy advisor in ontario and i see trane quite often as well as goodman but i must admit the goodman units are like econo brand stuff like ssx140241bb and ssx140181bb. they are the standard to satisfy the program here. there are the trane combination of xr15 15 seer 2.5 ton a/c and xv95 97% variable speed brush-less dc motor that people do say good things about when i do the post audits for them. hydro price goes down and air circulates very well through their house. choose well and look into any rebates that may be out there for you.

I will look into the Trane mentioned above. Did look into Goodman but got the same impression as you stated.

I am definitely going to purchase a variable speed furnace and I like the modulated control of the York furnace, which is the only modulated gas valve I could find for residential use, but I am not particularly fond of their AC compressor. If need be I will go to a two or three stage gas valve as it seems that companies will not warranty your units if they are not a matching set.

I am in zone 2 USA and close to water so humidity is a problem. I like the idea of reaching temperature set point, the furnace shuts down, but if humidity set point point (winter) has not been reached the blower will continue running at 10% until it is satisfied.

Seems like Nordyne , according to many reviews, make the best compressor which are then sold to 6-8 other companies but the biggest problem is to find a good contractor which has its own crew and a good service record.

An update as I have not made a selection yet.

I started with local HVAC contractors: 4 contacted, 1 responded.

Service Magic: 4 contacted, 2 responded.

Quality Smith: 3 contacted, 1 responded.

2 contractors via national local newspaper: 1 response, never showed up/called.

Looked at Angies'List but they wanted a yearly fee for browsing.

Total of 13 contacted, 5 appointments, 4 shows.

Appointments with three contractors: York, Trane, Carrier resulted in only one doing a "manual J" configuration and all spent roughly two hours with me and they did leave me with an estimate( did require arm twisting). Carrier (SEARS) rep said that their price was not negotiable as everyone received the same price/service.

The fourth contractor from above, Rheem, said he would email 2-3 proposals and he would get back to me. After four days and no estimate I sent an email and the reply was that the salesperson could return to my home with an "negotiable contract" as they do not email estimates which I replied "NO Thank You".

All offered discount for cash (700.00 in one case), all offered finance free loan for year to 18 months and various service plans. Read carefuuly as some will give you 10 years parts/labor IF you have their maintenance plan: yearly cleaning of units (AC/Furnace) which can be costly; 60 to 100 per visit.


All of the above contractors asked me where (2-husband, 1 significant other, 1 did not ask).


For my friends up north, Service Magic, Quality Smith are services paid by the contractors while Angies' List is a paid subscription service.

Trane is a very good brand.

But what you should also look for is the units SEER rating, the higher the SEER rating the more efficient the unit and the lower the yearly electrical cost will be, a standard SEER rating is about 13, they go to about a 26, but you will pay more for a higher SEER rating.

More on SEER ratings here.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

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I'd stay away from Carrier, Not saying they are bad, but the dealers that install them are kinda like exclusive dealers, their in carriers buying program.

So what I'm saying, is not anyone can service and get parts for carrier, whereas Trane (Ingersoll Rand) Goodman and what my partner uses, Whirlpool, in Chicago are kinda like generic, anyone can work on them and get parts, Hence, a little cheaper when you need it repaired. I would go with a 2 stage and variable speed DC fan motor. much more quieter at night and will not create all the fast air movement that can make a room feel chilly form the volume of air that a single stage fan is passing.

Pricing...
a 90% 200,000 BTU cost us around 600 to 1000, depending on the brand. then consider the AC "A" coil and the sheet metal work. Outdoor condenser, again, 600 to 1200, depending on efficiency.

Our specialty is boiler PEX/Hydronic hot water systems for driveways.... for the big time millionaires, they don't want snow on their driveways or walks, so they go with a Hydronic hot water system under the drive and walks.... Nice thing, It dryes the drive and walk. Ice free, water free.


I think the cheapest system we did last year was $65,000. we have done single family homes that were well over 1 mill. no kidding.

the Nat gas to fire the boilers for the bigger drives and systems are around 4 to 5K a month January, in Chicago. They don't care, these folks have : REAL MONEY" I wish I was there.....I still owe the tax man for the last two years....

In the US you need at least a SEER of 16 to qualify for a federal rebate, the suppliers rebate and local gas utility rebate. All told, if project started before the end of this year, the rebate totals are about 1500.00 USD.

As far as Carrier, I had Sears comes out along with a local company (65 years in business) and the prices where ~ 4500.00 apart. Sears did call back (contracted workers) and offered 3K off of price with a 5/5year parts/labor kick. The local Carrier offered 10/10 years parts/labor free.

As of now Trane and Rheem is my is my number 2 with Carrier as # 1. York, according to everything I have read is a builders grade now.

I am disappointed that the local certified Rheem dealer refuse to give me an estimate as I believe I may have gone with them (forum reviews and comments).

I may have stated this earlier but the contractor need to be certified before your units are warranty and eligible for rebates.

What really is amazing is that if you find your units via a direct buy company you can save a minimum of 50% as some companies are charging a 100-150% price increase. I priced my units (top of line) at 3900.00 delivered and the quotes I have received are 9 to 14K ...amazing. BUT to get that warranty.....

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Originally Posted by Pollypurabred

In the US you need at least a SEER of 16 to qualify for a federal rebate, the suppliers rebate and local gas utility rebate. All told, if project started before the end of this year, the rebate totals are about 1500.00 USD.

As far as Carrier, I had Sears comes out along with a local company (65 years in business) and the prices where ~ 4500.00 apart. Sears did call back (contracted workers) and offered 3K off of price with a 5/5year parts/labor kick. The local Carrier offered 10/10 years parts/labor free.

As of now Trane and Rheem is my is my number 2 with Carrier as # 1. York, according to everything I have read is a builders grade now.

I am disappointed that the local certified Rheem dealer refuse to give me an estimate as I believe I may have gone with them (forum reviews and comments).

I may have stated this earlier but the contractor need to be certified before your units are warranty and eligible for rebates.

What really is amazing is that if you find your units via a direct buy company you can save a minimum of 50% as some companies are charging a 100-150% price increase. I priced my units (top of line) at 3900.00 delivered and the quotes I have received are 9 to 14K ...amazing. BUT to get that warranty.....

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You have to expect that type of mark up from the contractor.. They supply the labour costs of warrantee repairs. Peronaly I would go with a modulating gas burner, it eliminates short cycling in mid seasons wiil give you a higher seasonal efficiency and a longer product life as well as better confort. Make sure the instaler is reputable otherwise the labour part of the warantee is at risk. The manufacturer only covers the parts..

An Update: I contact Carrier via email and in two weeks they responded:

Answer: they no longer make the 58MPV furnace and offer no warranty or a federal/local rebate.

The 59 series are the newest with 2 models; 2 stage and a modulating gas valve version. Both offer a local/federal rebate (USA).

Both 59 series offer a 10 year parts/labor coverage.

So after a month of internet/forums searching/discussions, I finally made a decision.

After a little haggling I did go with the Carrier:

59 series furnace-self modulating gas valve (upgrade over previous, I'll never get the money back from my this furnace, but I like new stuff: ~ 600.00 more in price but offers a 400.00 ICS thermostat, (talk to via internet) which has a 96.5% AFIE.

All total it will be ~ 9100.00 USD, 60K BTU furnace, 2.5 ton, 2 stage AC, 10 year total warranty, parts/labor on both.

I will report either way should I have problems.

Tks for all your inputs.


Forgot to add. With all rebates offered I should get ~ 1500.00 back. Taint bad.

From what I have read, Canada does not allow a new installation of a furnace/AC less than 92% AFIE/15.5 SEER which I think is great (could be wrong; different articles have reported different guidelines).

I feel it is a shame that the USA does not apply the same standards, especially since the USA has considerable more people.

IF the options change from 80 to 90% minimum, then prices will follow.

!0 seer is outdated prob an old R22 system just hanging around, stay away from it. Trane they leak! I haven't seen one yet that didn't, and I'm Trane certified. Other than that they are all about the same. brand name don't matter. They all use the same compressor and coil manufacturers. Pick the contractor you feel best with

I know this thread is a little out dated , but thought i would let u all know about a Carrier furnace i got installed back in Nov 1998 by a certified Carrier installer, have dropped about 3600.00 on repairs so far and had little to NO help from the Carrier HQ, talked to a dealer in the area and he decide to offer me a credit for a new Carrier furnace, 1150.00 or credit to the company toaward a new install of this new product, so far to get a new furnace and new AC unit the prices are right around 10,000.00 with debates of around 2400.00 but i have dropped over 4200.00 for the install back in 1998 and 3600.00 for repair on a 12 year old furnace.. so IMO i would stay away from Carrier, very very poor customer care

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Originally Posted by clarkie

I know this thread is a little out dated , but thought i would let u all know about a Carrier furnace i got installed back in Nov 1998 by a certified Carrier installer, have dropped about 3600.00 on repairs so far and had little to NO help from the Carrier HQ, talked to a dealer in the area and he decide to offer me a credit for a new Carrier furnace, 1150.00 or credit to the company toaward a new install of this new product, so far to get a new furnace and new AC unit the prices are right around 10,000.00 with debates of around 2400.00 but i have dropped over 4200.00 for the install back in 1998 and 3600.00 for repair on a 12 year old furnace.. so IMO i would stay away from Carrier, very very poor customer care

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Send their customer service a link to this page, tell them we will give them some very negative reviews, (here and other places on the web) and help lower their nation wide sales, they may come around and give you a new unit.......Hah, what am I thinking of, someone like Carrier giving away a new unit......Man..what a dream.