Beam me up.
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Beam me up.
you're right ... your Post Office has an obligation to deliver that letter to you ... that's why they put the little card in your box ...Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
if you bring the card in, and refuse to sign for it, the fact that you refused to sign for it is recorded and the letter is returned to the sender with an explanation as to why it was returned ... so they know you refused to accept it ...
All the examples included here are attempted answers for those who seem to want to deny "use" of the "purchased" code ...
What about "agreeing" to the purchase but "denying" it was ever used ....
The defense would sound something like this,,
I was surfing the net for satellite services to compare providers, services, packages and costs
I typed sattelite in Google which brought me to multiple pages, I navigated to a page where I noticed free tv.....
After reading through multiple free tv announcements including kodi and other such free streaming ads I came
Across an nfps offer,,,, after a few more clicks I unwittingly purchased an offer mistaking thinking it came with
A player or an app which would allow me to watch TV or movies on my computer or tablet "legally" because in
Fact I did "purchase" the service
Upon receiving the "code" I realized it was nothing as I perceived and realized the site was another internet scam
which sold me nothing and I got taken. I have never used this "code" and I don't even know the meaning of "circumvent"
I am a victim of Internet fraud and it's the website that mislead me that is in fact the person's you need to be chasing ...........
(for those who have a legal subscription) and to prove my innocence and to further add credibilty in the matter, here is
proof of my tv subscription. .......
Let's keep an opened mind about this ,,,, all the wanna be lawyers and debaters here ,, yes I am aware that ignorance is not
a defence ,,,,, however at the very least, admitting to the "purchase" but denying the "use" puts the ball in the court of the prosecuter
to prove "use" ............... as it has been stated many times , one need only "sway the preponderance of evidence" and "sound a bit
more convincing"
I believe, taking this defence avenue,,,,, win or lose ,, the fine would be considerably weekend
Comments ??
So did the OP ever end up paying out?
Or did I miss the end results of this somewhere in all these posts?
I guess the question remains. Does anyone know of a court that has ruled against an end user using DN and IKS? Not Direct.
I believe a couple of end users attempted to use similar arguments in their defense and it ended up costing them in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLG
The original demand is pretty much off the table when you force them to take you to court. At that point it`s highly unlikely that it will cost you less than simply paying the original demand. I mean let`s face it, you are now costing them money.
Granted there have been a few cases that yielded unusual outcomes, confidential settlements or voluntary dismissals, but the reasons for those results are usually confidential.
of course ... there are hundreds of cases against end users by DN.Quote:
Originally Posted by arms
Always wondered if what the op posted was authentic on this one or was it just bs to stir the pot. By what was said through this thread in regards to the op it does call it into question. At any rate seems someone felt the need to stir it up again. Here any more a lot of what I read and see makes me go hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benney
Sounds like it may have a chance of winning if you only purchased one time and never again.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLG
My two cents.....wouldn't they have to put that in the letter? That you purchased multiple times? A simple pay up, cease and desist might make the above doable. And I would say I was a victim of a satscam. :innocent:Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
One of the points of my last post was to show reduction ad absurdum. A similar argument might be: I own many sharp and blunt instruments, so it seems I am guilty of murder since they might be used to kill a person.
I wonder if this idea might have some defense possibilities: Set up your IKS server to ping local and national political figures and judges--then you could show in court that there was internet traffic with those folks---since you were communicating with them, they are guilty of a violation as much as you. I know the judge will say: "They are not on trial, you are", but still, they might get the case tossed. On the user side, I suppose they too could ping (or do something more interesting--say UDP CW packets) a similar list--but the idea might need a little tweak for users.
Yes you can take it all the way to court and maybe win if they have no incriminating FTA pirate forum posts or PM's but your lawyer and other fees will definitely cost more unless you could get DN to pay them.
Oh, please! If you have a good lawyer then you counter sue them and win.
just curious as to where you got your law degree or if you are speaking from experience and have fought them and won? Otherwise your opinion is nothing more than conjecture either and last time I looked this whole thread is based on conjecture and personal opinion so your idea is no better or worse than anybody else's but when was the last time you seen anybody turn the tables on them that way and win a countersuit?Quote:
Originally Posted by jvvh5897
now it just seems to be the general consensus that anybody getting caught doing that just pay the initial demand and make it go away. If you decide to fight it in some manner, odds are the outcome will be the same and the penalty will be much higher if you lose as you are also paying for court time and their legal team as well. Oh and don't forget your own lawyer bill as well and you still have to be able to persuade the judge that you bought a code for stealing TV and never used it and had no intention of doing so. LOL
The paper trail outlined in the demand letter basically states the paper trail and what the code was for. I suppose if the code had any other use you might have a valid point but as things are you do not. So if you want to rack up $20 grand in legal costs for the same outcome then go for it but I haven't seen any end users that stupid yet. Granted stupid enough to use IKS and a leave a paper trail but not that stupid that they dont know the difference between $20000 and $3500.
What I don't think is fair is these resellers maintaining records and then tossing their clients under the bus so they get out of jail free card. Want to counter sue somebody because you got a demand letter for your illegal actions, start a class action suit against the guy who sold it you
What grounds would there be for a counter lawsuit. ?
GS2
haven't seen a post anywhere that an end user has won
Assuming DN loses the case and the defendant wasn't awarded his legal costs, he might consider a counter lawsuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2
You know the FTA world has to have the poorest criminals around! Real Darwin Award level. You don't bother to cover your tracks in the first place, then when things go bad post about it and have no idea of an exit strategy. Any real legal advice never gets posted and if any suggest an option, then they are ignored. I've suggested group of folks that get letters join together to get good legal help in the past--no sign that that happened. I've suggested ways to counter posts getting viewed--no sign of that happening. I've suggested ways to get folks with money to block suits coming to trial. Really, what are any of you doing that is positive? Seems the position here is lay back and take it.
You're right jvvh but my "friend" just went ahead and paid "his" $3,500 and has posted this way ever since to CYA. If everyone posted this way there would be a better legal defense because there would be no incriminating posts to show proof these codes were ever used and nothing was gained by it. Just a word to the wise, NEVER post that "I'm" up on so and so's service or down either because then they've got you by the balls lol. At least my "friend" has delayed further action this way and BTW...never pay with paypal or something that can be easily traced. Take the word of someone who knows (but is not me) PLEASE! BE SAFE my friends.
EDIT: I'm not saying this will save your ass because many of you are already guilty of posting the other way but at least for newbies keep this in mind as they will come after you! I feel for all of zoogers clients that it may already be too late for. JMO
is that even possible ...Quote:
Originally Posted by hondoharry
in the US ... win or lose, everyone pays their own legal costs unless there is a specific contract between the parties or the statute allows the judge some discretion ... neither of which appears to be the case ...
Oh brother !?!? :thud:
If there were any winners to the letter, they were settled; and on condition of banned publication.
By winners I don't mean court winners, I mean winners who made a case with the lawyers by showing
and creating doubt thus weakening the case against themselves.
No one wants to risk going through a whole court procedure only to lose,,, and neither does the other side.
The advice being given (if anyone is even reading this thread for advice) to just pay up,, isn't solid advice
cause there are so many variables,, it doesn't apply to everyone’s case.
Of coarse there were winner,, none of them will ever come to this thread and say a word because the
the general concensus on the idea is.....****em !!
you can't show one case where an end user was successful in their attempts to reduce the award to less than the original demand ...Quote:
Originally Posted by TLG
but there are numerous cases (public documents) that show exactly the opposite :)
while I will admit there have been some unusual results you'd be a fool to think that those were in the end users favor ... I'm willing to bet that the cases that were "Confidential Settlements" were a result of the end user and their lawyer agreeing to pay the $7500 instead of continuing with the case and ending up with a judgement of $10,000.
the cases that I would be more interested in are the ones that DN Voluntarily Dismissed ... and there were a number of those ... IMO those might hold something of value ...
but to suggest that the advice to pay up isn't solid, and show nothing but speculation as your proof doesn't seem all logical to me
There have been people that have entered a defence against their Claim (without the assistnace of a lawyer) and they have stopped their proceedings - but it takes a lot of effort and time.
In my opinion if they offer to sit down and talk with you or if they try to serve you - face the music and try to see what they have against you. I bet in most cases they only have one piece of evidence against you and there may be chance you can explain why you are "not guilty". It may be a long shot - but I think it is better than sticking your head in the sand and refusing to talk to them. From what I have heard the guys that refuse to talk to them or ignore their letters end up getting default judgements against them.
jvh.... was right none of us should be so stupid to be caught in their traps - never use you own emails, credit cards, PayPal or anything that can be linked to you when you pay for a service.
But if they do nab you - I think it is best to talk to them and see what they have.
What happen if you send the money on pay pad is 2 way 1 is send is: pay for good or services and 2 is send money to friend or family , But I know the re seller is always tell you send is for friend or family and Disk say is buy the codes ? what should you do ?
what should you do??? really?... lol...DON'T use pay pal, simple as that and if that's the only method your seller accepts find someone else who offers other methods of paying that are more discreetQuote:
Originally Posted by dungchau6262
Been reading this thread and I'm just curios, has anyone actually paid the amount the letter or email is asking for and what was the outcome? The reason why I'm asking is because at the satscums website they even set up a pay-p link to settle up. Thats kind of strange to me.
I have read that many people have paid and not paid and lost in Court !!!!
There are numerous posts about people asking what they should do because they received a demand letter and there are all kinds of answers regarding what to do. The outcome is still the same. Either bite the bullet and try to negotiate a lower price and pay it or try to fight it in court with the outcome costing you more than the original amount. Ignore the first demand and get a second requesting substantially more. Odds are they have a PayPal option to make payment simple and guaranteed.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezed
Bottom line is that once caught and they have shown some proof it's time to get the checkbook out.
Thnk you Anubis. This is the most helpful advise I heard yet. Do you have any insight as to what the Nagra will do?
I had to pay. Follow there instructions. I wrote them a letter saying I didn't do anything but settling to end it. Get a certified ck and make copies of everything for your records. Send ups or registered mail so u will have proof they received it. That's it won't here from them again. It has been over 2 years. I also changed my ip.
you should ask your employer :offtopic1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt
:hide: from the :judge:Quote:
Originally Posted by nob0dy
:stooges:
Why not? DN already has their paypal account info as part of their evidence. DN loves you to use paypal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis
yeah, they sure do love it....Just got my happy tidings from satscams today. Will be calling them tomorrow to find out what they have . Since I am retired and on a fixed income which doesn't have any room to pay the $3500, will be interesting to see what they say. This action is from 4 years ago, isn't there a statute of limitations on how far they can go back?
The statute of limitations begins to run when they first discover the violation, not when the event occurred.
Anyone has any input on this lawyer Gary W. Ruff?