DN $3500 demand

I wonder how many demand letters have actually been sent. My guess is thousands or close to that. Last i read according to alex only 16 cases have actually ended up in court. I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up. Interesting idea as it seems to be working but if you pay the 3.5k what would be the chance then that they still won't come after these people at a later date? The second page of these letters seems to indicate a full release but then again also when you pay the 3.5k you are actually admitting your guilt by buying the codes. Copy of one of the demand letters, "page two" that I found at another site. I assume the letters are mostly all the same. Let's think about this...

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Originally Posted by jazzman

I wonder how many demand letters have actually been sent. My guess is thousands or close to that. Last i read according to alex only 16 cases have actually ended up in court. I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up. Interesting idea as it seems to be working but if you pay the 3.5k what would be the chance then that they still won't come after these people at a later date? The second page of these letters seems to indicate a full release but then again also when you pay the 3.5k you are actually admitting your guilt by buying the codes. Copy of one of the demand letters, "page two" that I found at another site. I assume the letters are mostly all the same. Let's think about this...

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That's why its advisable to begin all correspondence with them with the phrase "without prejudice".

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http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/without-prejudice.html

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That way you are not admitting any guilt and they can't use what you say as evidence in a court of law.

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Originally Posted by sodusme

No actually they are stating in a nutshell "how can you steal something you have paid for". Since the people using these controllers and SD cards have purchased subscriptions to the XBox service. The same could be argued here. If someone has subscribed to DN programming and in turn is "circumventing" it via another route they have paid for subscription of the copyright work. The EFF is maintaining that Congress had people who simply were stealing a copyright work without any compensation to the developers or company in mind when they wrote section (1201)(1)(a)

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No they did not pay DN for the programing if you receive it through IKS. DN does not authorize it period. The only way to subscribe to it is to pay them directly. If you pay them for a subscription it does not mean than you can go use IKS to circumvent.

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You are correct in that they are not addressing the issue of "possession" or "use" of the controllers and SD cards. The EFF is stating that the mere possession or use of these devices does not equate to circumvention of a copyright work. Again the same argument could made here. Codes do not equate to the circumvention of a copyright work.

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Your comparing third party memory cards that Mircosoft sells to IKS that never pays for the accessed works. You can argue the purchase of the codes does not prove you circumvented but I think you have an uphill battle because the purchase of these codes has only one purpose and that is to circumvent the technology. Not sure a court is going to believe the purchase of them served for any other purpose but to circumvent.

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They are saying that the DMCA was not meant for people to not be able to "tinker" with a copyrighted work after "paying" or "subscribing" to said copyright work. It has nothing to do with receiving "payment" for anything other then the subscription or copyright work itself. After payment you are supposedly free to "tinker" and even "reverse engineer" the copyright work with some limitations.

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Why are you even assuming someone who paid for subscription codes to circumvent the technology paid the provider for a subscription. Your suggesting they paid DN for a subscription to their copyright programming then decided to tinker with it. The allegation by DN is that you paid for a subscription to codes control words to circumvent their protected works without being authorize by them.


People who pay DN for a programming subscription don't need to pay wulfman for a subscription to his service that allows you to receive the programming without paying DN directly for a subscription to their programming.




GS2

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Originally Posted by sodusme

See now this is B.S IMO:



But one could also argue that by using a "third party" receiver that you are not "first hand" anyways the one doing the reverse engineering. That you are simply using a third party device that may or may not be authorized.



The word "consumers" implies that you are not the one doing the reverse engineering and you are still under your right to use the copyright work to its fullest extent even though the "competing" accessories are "unauthorized". So you are simply an "end user" in other words and not the one manufacturing or producing or marketing the item.

Its interesting wording and I find it very intriguing.

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What they are referring to is similar to unlocking your cell phone to go use it with the cell provider of your choice. If Verizon comes to to court saying you can not unlock their phones than they are trying to use the law ( DMCA ) to cut out competition which is what EFF alleges with Microsoft is trying to do with their use of the DMCA with basically saying you have to use their memory cards when other memory cards do the same thing that is legal.


To me this has nothing to do with DN's allegation against end users who subscribe to IKS to cut out IKS as competition. IKS is not competition. Its circumventing a technology without payment to anyone period.


Maybe its only me but I do not at all see a comparison of what is going on with the Mircrosoft case as being applied to the DN cases, not at all. IKS simply does not pay anyone for the protected copyright programming.



GS2

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Originally Posted by Nostradamus

hmmm makes you wonder why warner Bros, and other networks and movie studios do not sue DN under the same pretense of copyright infringement for failing to secure their encrypted signal adequately to prevent unauthorized viewing

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That has been done sorta of in Canada with Videotron suing Bev for not securing their signal or more precisely not doing enough on the piracy problem. Videotron won a judgment in the case.

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hxxp://www.quebecor.com/en/comm/videotron-and-tva-lawsuits-against-bell-tv-superior-court-condemns-bell-connection-piracy-its-t



Videotron and TVA lawsuits against Bell TV: The Superior Court condemns Bell in connection with the piracy of its TV distribution system

Français

24 juillet 2012


Montreal (Quebec), July 24 2012– Following legal proceedings that stretched out over seven years, Quebecor Media Inc. welcomes with great satisfaction yesterday’s Quebec Superior Court findings blaming Bell TV (formerly Bell ExpressVu) in judgments stemming from lawsuits brought on by Videotron Ltd. and TVA Group Inc. charging that Bell TV had failed to protect its satellite television distribution signal against piracy.

“We are glad to see the Superior Court condemn Bell for resorting to illegal means that weaken its competitors and for having failed to meet its obligations to protect rather than undermine the integrity of the Quebec and Canadian broadcasting sector. Unfortunately, we once again find that Bell is willing to use any means necessary to reach its ends and put more money in its pocket, regardless of the good governance and corporate social responsibilities that behoove a company of Bell’s size. It appears inconceivable that a company that benefited for decades from being a monopoly could have resorted to practices so detrimental to the rest of the broadcasting industry as to be condemned by law,” said Pierre Karl Péladeau, president and CEO of Quebecor, Quebecor Media and Sun Media Corporation.

In judgments in two connected cases, the Honourable Justice Joel A. Silcoff ordered Bell TV to pay close to a million dollars to Videotron and TVA Group after concluding that Bell TV committed a serious fault by not taking the appropriate measures at the opportune time to prevent the illegal decoding of its satellite television signals, even though it knew the extent of the piracy of its system and had the required technology at its disposal to end it

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GS2

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Originally Posted by ChillyWilly

With all do respect, I think you guys are getting lost in the weeds here. With legal fees being what they are, there is no way DN can hire an attorney for $3500 or even $5000 and pursue these cases. I believe DN is letting the lawyer(s) keep 100% of all collectables; this is the only thing that makes sense. DN benefits by the anti-piracy scare publicity.

So, assuming the above is true, it is logical to assume the lawyer(s) will not waste their time on any endeavor that is not a slam dunk. Lawyers are also very adept at discovering assets of any possible defendant. Or simply put, if a lawyer has seen fit to sue, he most probably has a winning case, has researched the assets, and is filing in a state which has plaintiff friendly seizure laws.

Bottom line, if you received a letter, you have a real problem......but jmo

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For me it always has been about the scare to end users and publicity of it and showing their are fighting piracy. It fits on their propaganda web site when they can post they got a $10,000 default judgment. Its not about making a big score in court with gaining revenues received from people from the demand letters because I hardly doubt that happens with all the expenses at lest in my opinion.



GS2

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Originally Posted by ChillyWilly

They are selling the ppv movies to DN and/or receiving royalties for same. So they may wish to keep that relationship in tact.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago where a cable company sued DN/BEV. They claimed by not securing their signal, DN/BEV enabled piracy, thus reducing the consumer base, and thus reducing sales and profits........

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Yup just saw this after I made the post about videotron ( cable company ) against Bev ( sat company )



GS2

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Originally Posted by dishuser

no videotron went to the crtc not court

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No they sued Bev in court and won. The decision was quite detailed and even showed that Bev did not even have a written contract with Nag. That to me was shocking and embarrassing. They might know about telephones but seemed helpless when it came to satellite security technology.



GS2

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

No they did not pay DN for the programing if you receive it through IKS. DN does not authorize it period. The only way to subscribe to it is to pay them directly. If you pay them for a subscription it does not mean than you can go use IKS to circumvent.





Your comparing third party memory cards that Mircosoft sells to IKS that never pays for the accessed works. You can argue the purchase of the codes does not prove you circumvented but I think you have an uphill battle because the purchase of these codes has only one purpose and that is to circumvent the technology. Not sure a court is going to believe the purchase of them served for any other purpose but to circumvent.






Why are you even assuming someone who paid for subscription codes to circumvent the technology paid the provider for a subscription. Your suggesting they paid DN for a subscription to their copyright programming then decided to tinker with it. The allegation by DN is that you paid for a subscription to codes control words to circumvent their protected works without being authorize by them.


People who pay DN for a programming subscription don't need to pay wulfman for a subscription to his service that allows you to receive the programming without paying DN directly for a subscription to their programming.




GS2

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

What they are referring to is similar to unlocking your cell phone to go use it with the cell provider of your choice. If Verizon comes to to court saying you can not unlock their phones than they are trying to use the law ( DMCA ) to cut out competition which is what EFF alleges with Microsoft is trying to do with their use of the DMCA with basically saying you have to use their memory cards when other memory cards do the same thing that is legal.


To me this has nothing to do with DN's allegation against end users who subscribe to IKS to cut out IKS as competition. IKS is not competition. Its circumventing a technology without payment to anyone period.


Maybe its only me but I do not at all see a comparison of what is going on with the Mircrosoft case as being applied to the DN cases, not at all. IKS simply does not pay anyone for the protected copyright programming.



GS2

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OK lets make some comparisons here:

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http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

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Datel manufacturers third party accessories for to be used on MS's XBox 360.

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One of Microsoft’s defenses is that Datel violated a section – 1201(a) – of the DMCA by selling third-party memory units that are mainly used for cheating on Xbox games.

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NPFS puts out codes to be used on DN's dishes and lnb's.

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Court documents allege that the receivers using these codes have only one main use and that is theft of service.

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Although Microsoft attempts to obscure the effect of this interpretation by characterizing such users as “cheaters,”.

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MS claims that its customers who use these third party items sold by Datel are "cheaters".

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DN characterizes some of its users as "cheaters".

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DN states that anyone that purchased a code is a thief.

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Microsoft effectively asks the Court to grant it exclusive rights to sell any and all Xbox-360-compatible memory cards, controllers, and headsets.

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MS wants exclusive rights to manufacture all third party equipment that works with their XBox 360.

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DN doesn't want Pansat and Sonicview and Viewsat manufacturing receivers to use with their dishes and lnb's.

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DN has said time and time again that these items should be removed from the market and even posts on SS that they are "illegal".

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The Redmond-based company also pointed out that its Xbox 360 customer agreement states users can only use Microsoft-approved accessories, and that Datel’s are not certified.

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MS's EUA states that only MS approved accessories can be used on the XBox 360.

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DN's EUA stipulates that only DN approved equipment can be used on their dishes and lnb's.

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Any person who procures Equipment that has been so modified is an accessory to that offense and may be punished in the same manner.

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In a response, Datel said it indeed overcame the Xbox security chip to make its accessories work with the console. Datel argued its memory cards were not specifically marketed as instruments for cheating and indeed have legitimate uses, including the basic storage of game data.

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Datel has successfully unlocked security measures and admitted to the same to have their third party accessories work on MS's XBox 360.

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NFPS has obviously tampered with DN's smart cards.

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NFPS has made it so that they smart cards effectively work on a third party box made by Pansat, Sonicview or Viewsat.

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But Microsoft says Datel’s own website stated the accessories company “creates the world’s best-selling videogame cheat products,” that a user can “install files from your PC to you console’s hard drive, and inspect.

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MS alleges that Datel's own website boasts of theft of service being accomplished with their third part accessories.

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NFPS has claims on their website about offering IKS service.

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Join today the best IKS Private Server, NFPS is now faster, more secure stable.

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Consumers paid Microsoft and its affiliates for the devices and games in question, and the Court should not allow Microsoft to unfairly restrict the full use of these products, even if the use falls outside of Microsoft’s vision.

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Once purchasing equipment from MS and subscribing to the XBox 360 network the consumer as argued by the EFF has the right to tinker with the system.

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This above statement is the only possible non-parallel statement as not everyone who "pirates" DN's signal has purchased equipment from them or pays a subscription fee to them monthly.

Still don't see any similarities in these two cases?

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Originally Posted by sodusme

OK lets make some comparisons here:

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http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

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Datel manufacturers third party accessories for to be used on MS's XBox 360.

NPFS puts out codes to be used on DN's dishes and lnb's.

Although Microsoft attempts to obscure the effect of this interpretation by characterizing such users as “cheaters,”.

DN characterizes some of its users as "cheaters".

Microsoft effectively asks the Court to grant it exclusive rights to sell any and all Xbox-360-compatible memory cards, controllers, and headsets.

DN doesn't want Pansat and Sonicview and Viewsat manufacturing receivers to use with their dishes and lnb's.

The Redmond-based company also pointed out that its Xbox 360 customer agreement states users can only use Microsoft-approved accessories, and that Datel’s are not certified.

DN's EUA stipulates that only DN approved equipment can be used on their dishes and lnb's.

In a response, Datel said it indeed overcame the Xbox security chip to make its accessories work with the console. Datel argued its memory cards were not specifically marketed as instruments for cheating and indeed have legitimate uses, including the basic storage of game data.

NFPS has obviously tampered with DN's smart cards.

But Microsoft says Datel’s own website stated the accessories company “creates the world’s best-selling videogame cheat products,” that a user can “install files from your PC to you console’s hard drive, and inspect.

NFPS has claims on their website about offering IKS service.

Consumers paid Microsoft and its affiliates for the devices and games in question, and the Court should not allow Microsoft to unfairly restrict the full use of these products, even if the use falls outside of Microsoft’s vision.

This above statement is the only possible non-parallel statement as not everyone who "pirates" DN's signal has purchased equipment from them or pays a subscription fee to them monthly.

Still don't see any similarities in these two cases?

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No because IKS is clearly theft of signals by way of circumventing. I might add that we don't know who will win the Microsoft case. It could go their way too. ?


Sure the EFF brief sounds good but you need to see the counter brief because that will also have merit.



GS2

If you end up paying the money, send the payment in all Pennies to those pricks .... lol

BPG~

BPG, It's refreshing to have someone post a constructive comment here ... Most others are simply BS !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by jazzman

I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up.

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that is my thinking also....there is no way DN would risk being defeated in court or the entire FTA community would be laughing, they wouldnt take that chance, if you get a court summons they are 100% sure of the case, and you are done

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Originally Posted by Grave Digger

that is my thinking also....there is no way DN would risk being defeated in court or the entire FTA community would be laughing, they wouldnt take that chance, if you get a court summons they are 100% sure of the case, and you are done

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That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic and your ISP has changed and given you a different IP can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....

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Originally Posted by jazzman

That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....

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you do realize when you guys changed your nicks a search on the new nick's posts revealed your original nick right?