Letter now Court case

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

ok call me stuppid,,nothing new there ;)

considering Wuf's codes were almost alll stolen,,, (bought mine
at beta almost yr ago and is on list of stolen even though some worked for a while at least until
nfps caught on) could'nt one argue as a defense
you bought the codes BUT they never connected to any server cuz they
were compromised??? i mean far as i know,,,the plaintif hasnt stated they have
server loggs so how would they be able to rebutt "that" ,,,

now we're back with ONLY buying a code so, is THAT enough??
to prove their claim?? maybe these defendants should check thir codes
to see if they are on this list?? food for thought

edit:for those who try defending him/herself?

suggest you try your code on the checker and if it says stolen
and deactivated??? take your webcam or digital and snap a still
photo and save,,,cuz i think it will only be avail for next 10 days

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shows stolen on code checker?
hahaha

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Originally Posted by dishuser

shows stolen on code checker?
hahaha

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here's my neighbour's friend's uncle who got it through his
dad's mistress who used to bang, the wufman

http://phoenix.satfix.net/attachment...1&d=1361140164

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

ok call me stuppid,,nothing new there ;)

considering Wuf's codes were almost alll stolen,,, (bought mine
at beta almost yr ago and is on list of stolen even though some worked for a while at least until
nfps caught on) could'nt one argue as a defense
you bought the codes BUT they never connected to any server cuz they
were compromised??? i mean far as i know,,,the plaintif hasnt stated they have
server loggs so how would they be able to rebutt "that" ,,,

now we're back with ONLY buying a code so, is THAT enough??
to prove their claim?? maybe these defendants should check thir codes
to see if they are on this list?? food for thought

edit:for those who try defending him/herself?

suggest you try your code on the checker and if it says stolen
and deactivated??? take your webcam or digital and snap a still
photo and save,,,cuz i think it will only be avail for next 10 days

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So the defense would be that you bought these codes to view unauthorized signals but found out you couldn't because they were stolen and did not work. ?


I so don't think that would work too well.



GS2

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

So the defense would be that you bought these codes to view unauthorized signals but found out you couldn't because they were stolen and did not work. ?


I so don't think that would work too well.



GS2

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nope,,, i would say i bought codes for my neighbour who told me they were
for his FTA rec and would increase his true FTA signals to reach many
countries that would otherwise be out of reach,,,wasnt aware he had other plans
and because of his lies was removed from my xmas list,,,would it fly? never hurts
to try,,,be surprised what a judge might believe esp with a HHHot blonde luxurygirl sitting
right next to you,,, all the while winking at the judge,,, lol

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

nope,,, i would say i bought codes for my neighbour who told me they were
for his FTA rec and would increase his true FTA signals to reach many
countries that would otherwise be out of reach,,,wasnt aware he had other plans
and because of his lies was removed from my xmas list,,,would it fly? never hurts
to try,,,be surprised what a judge might believe esp with a HHHot blonde luxurygirl sitting
right next to you,,, all the while winking at the judge,,, lol

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edit; all kidding aside
ill be damned if i would allow a co like dn dictate what i can or cant buy,,, more
importantly, if they CANT tie in the use of that code and havent entered
my premises to confiscate all the hardware that this code was SUPPOSEDLY
used with/for??? then Yessirie bob,, they would have a Fight on their hands,,,were it
me named in this Bull crap claim

also, may i suggest resellers take be proactive by realizing the ONLY reason
this claim was made??? paypal,,,purge your data, cancel your existing pp acct
jic dn prevails cuz waiting until a judgement willbe too late,,dn would act super fast
to have PP turn over allllll suspiscious accts ESP active ones,,,all peeps should NO longer
be at resellers' behest,,,force them to offer other methods...IF you cant pay
using other method?? find it,,,otherwise youre SOL,,,this is ONLY one way
to try to save this from going south
i realize this is a shot in the dark by dn with this bs claim BUT all they need is
one peep to give in or be judged and the domino effect ,,, why do you think
third party payees by fish, nfps dont include PP?? cuz dn KNOWS full well
they dont have the same reaches to overseas payees,,,as has been proven
with NO letters whatsover by txns processed by other payees,,,failure to do this
all of you are only to blame,,,

not syaing i expect dn to win but best to have
backup plan already in effect,,,all the best to all of you faced with this current
claim,,,fight it make an example of DN and make them go after the REAL thieves
the server ops,,,ask them why they didnt go after endusers in that belgium co
who were nabbed short while back where nag and his friends were involved and
of course paypal right in there with them and turning over records/files,,,

dont misunderstand,,i think going after resellers is totally different and
fair game BUT
in a round about way then turn around
and file a claim against any enduser THAT the reseller sold to?? is LAME
at best,,,THAT is what smells about all this,,,ill gotten gains is
a phrase that comes to mind

so,take PP out out of this equation and theyve got SQUAT
on endusers,,,so that filing and the letters should be fought with a different
angle ,,of course a sharp lawyer would be able to find THAT argument

anyways,,food for thought

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

nope,,, i would say i bought codes for my neighbour who told me they were
for his FTA rec and would increase his true FTA signals to reach many
countries that would otherwise be out of reach,,,wasnt aware he had other plans
and because of his lies was removed from my xmas list,,,would it fly? never hurts
to try,,,be surprised what a judge might believe esp with a HHHot blonde luxurygirl sitting
right next to you,,, all the while winking at the judge,,, lol

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So the neighbour would go along and say he was a big liar and admit he wanted the codes and put himself at risk of being sued.



GS2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

So the neighbour would go along and say he was a big liar and admit he wanted the codes and put himself at risk of being sued.



GS2

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you dont have to present a neighbour to prove anything ESP
one that has moved away BUT ,,,throw as much as you can
against the claim to give the judge pause for thought,,,
if anything, if you present it properly and look and sound believeable??
be surprised ,,,judges arent quick to react if they are facing DOUBT,,,
reasonable doubt,,,in effect make the judge think that DN
doesnt really have enough to file the claim and dismiss it,,,as it should be

its called cherry picking and were i a lawyer (sharp lawyer)
i would argue ,,,with the thousands and thousands of endusers out there
why did they choose only a handful?? again, gives judge pause for thought

trust me a sharp lawyer would think of every possible angle
to argue of course this would cost BUT this is a test case and the future of
endusers using IKS in ONLY the U.S via pp payments is at stake
NOT the end of IKS but will scare many peeps away since it will cause dn
to muddy the waters all the more with pointless letters SCARING peeps
to give in...food for thought

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

http://phoenix.satfix.net/attachment...1&d=1361140164

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See where -in your link- it says, "deactivated"? That would allow pause that it was in fact working at one time, so the user was in fact in violation of the DMCA.

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

you dont have to present a neighbour to prove anything ESP
one that has moved away BUT ,,,throw as much as you can
against the claim to give the judge pause for thought,,,

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Judges rely on evidence based on fact. Have you ever heard of a written sworn testimony? Something like that is what the judge would need to see, not the defendants "word"...:rolleyes:

AFA your future as a lawyer...Keep your day job...

Trust me...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

you dont have to present a neighbour to prove anything ESP
one that has moved away BUT ,,,throw as much as you can
against the claim to give the judge pause for thought,,,
if anything, if you present it properly and look and sound believeable??
be surprised ,,,judges arent quick to react if they are facing DOUBT,,,
reasonable doubt,,,in effect make the judge think that DN
doesnt really have enough to file the claim and dismiss it,,,as it should be

its called cherry picking and were i a lawyer (sharp lawyer)
i would argue ,,,with the thousands and thousands of endusers out there
why did they choose only a handful?? again, gives judge pause for thought

trust me a sharp lawyer would think of every possible angle
to argue of course this would cost BUT this is a test case and the future of
endusers using IKS in ONLY the U.S via pp payments is at stake
NOT the end of IKS but will scare many peeps away since it will cause dn
to muddy the waters all the more with pointless letters SCARING peeps
to give in...food for thought

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In a civil process you would probably be deposed and asked who was your neighbor with a whole bunch of questions on it including when, where did they move away and what was their address as a neighbor to you. You start with not answering or you forgot it won't come off as too believable.


Throwing everything out there will look exactly like that and doubt that will help. You just be opening more doors for them to check out and ask you about. You can't answer or answer where your contradicting yourself or end up caught in a lie will hurt with a court. In the 12 years or so I have seen people come up with stories as a defense not one was successful or maybe not even tried. Lawyer are not keen on made up stories used as defense. They are looking to defend on law.




GS2

I'm with ftaalltheway all the way. I want to see him get the best lawyers who would have the best chance of winning his case. He could be that rich guy willing to spend $35,000 to beat a $3500 demand letter over a $35 purchase. Go for it man. I'm with you all the way. I'll even send $5 to your defense fund. Where do I sign up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

its called cherry picking and were i a lawyer (sharp lawyer)
i would argue ,,,with the thousands and thousands of endusers out there
why did they choose only a handful?? again, gives judge pause for thought

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If you were that lawyer making that argument in front of a judge you would be setting yourself up to be sanctioned (fined or disciplined) by the judge.

Every lawyer (sharp and dull ones) know that the Federal Rules of Evidence prohibit them from making that kind of argument.

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

In a civil process you would probably be deposed and asked who was your neighbor with a whole bunch of questions on it including when, where did they move away and what was their address as a neighbor to you. You start with not answering or you forgot it won't come off as too believable.


Throwing everything out there will look exactly like that and doubt that will help. You just be opening more doors for them to check out and ask you about. You can't answer or answer where your contradicting yourself or end up caught in a lie will hurt with a court. In the 12 years or so I have seen people come up with stories as a defense not one was successful or maybe not even tried. Lawyer are not keen on made up stories used as defense. They are looking to defend on law.




GS2

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agree partly,,,that basicaly what i meant in essence,,,a sharp lawyer would
be able to argue SOME law, surely there has to be at least one OTHER
than technical ones??

look, dn knows full well, the ONLY way they got this info
was a back door opening by first INVESTIGATING
a reseller's acct,,,no way enduser should then be named

thats MY point about "ill gotten means",,,NO way
dn can PROVE you used this code and to argue in front
of a judge, without connecting alllllll the dots, as i stated
his officials entering said premises to then confiscate
related hardware, and/or server logs???is simply a CROCK ;)

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Originally Posted by hondoharry

I'm with ftaalltheway all the way. I want to see him get the best lawyers who would have the best chance of winning his case. He could be that rich guy willing to spend $35,000 to beat a $3500 demand letter over a $35 purchase. Go for it man. I'm with you all the way. I'll even send $5 to your defense fund. Where do I sign up?

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ill fund 50.00

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Originally Posted by MarvinGardens

If you were that lawyer making that argument in front of a judge you would be setting yourself up to be sanctioned (fined or disciplined) by the judge.

Every lawyer (sharp and dull ones) know that the Federal Rules of Evidence prohibit them from making that kind of argument.

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of course one would make a PLAUSIBLE argument
one that can be construed as fact BUT cant be proven
gee sound familiar?? much like the claim the plaintiff
is making,,,what happens if/when THEY lose their case?
it gets dismissed, with NO sanctions for a frivolous claim

That lawyer could be sanctioned regardless or whether his side won or lost the case.

That argument simply has no legal relevance to the case and a judge or jury would not even consider it when making their decision. In fact it would very well prejudice a judge against you and your cause.

Was this letter from a law office by the name of Boyle or Dolyle?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarvinGardens

That lawyer could be sanctioned regardless or whether his side won or lost the case.

That argument simply has no legal relevance to the case and a judge or jury would not even consider it when making their decision. In fact it would very well prejudice a judge against you and your cause.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarvinGardens

That lawyer could be sanctioned regardless or whether his side won or lost the case.

That argument simply has no legal relevance to the case and a judge or jury would not even consider it when making their decision. In fact it would very well prejudice a judge against you and your cause.

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its a civil claim,,, MANY plaintifs file frivolous claims and they get dismissed
faster than it was filed,,,judges are swamped with them

jury?? i think ur stuck in CRIMINAL mode,,,legal relevance?? give head a shake ;)

prejudice a judge? give head a shake ;) say what you will

still doesnt take away from what this claim is all about,,,

A CROCK!!!!!

I love this stuff.......been following and doing lots of reading because it's interesting and some peeps make some good posts and good points! I went back and read the OP pdf. dn/nag make two claims about IKS. One, it updates STB piracy software and two, provides code words to circumvent nagra encryption. I have a friend with a so called 'donation' and I never ever seen his STB software updated from said 'service' I even went to the NFPS site and could find nothing that makes this claim. Am I wrong or missing something? Surely dn would not be making false accusations?

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

agree partly,,,that basicaly what i meant in essence,,,a sharp lawyer would
be able to argue SOME law, surely there has to be at least one OTHER
than technical ones??

look, dn knows full well, the ONLY way they got this info
was a back door opening by first INVESTIGATING
a reseller's acct,,,no way enduser should then be named

thats MY point about "ill gotten means",,,NO way
dn can PROVE you used this code and to argue in front
of a judge, without connecting alllllll the dots, as i stated
his officials entering said premises to then confiscate
related hardware, and/or server logs???is simply a CROCK ;)

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They have the business records and therefore named the end user. There is nothing wrong or illegal with that. Your assuming that the plaintiffs have to prove the end user used the code. I don't think they do. I think they have to show by the evidence its more likely than not that the intent was to use the codes illegally not that they have to show the codes were actually used. There is no other use for these codes which by themselves would be considered illegal along with the operation of the server being illegal. The plaintiff has filled a complaint and it will shift to the defendant to explain the purchase of the codes in defense. The tendency is to than come up with stories that leave more to attack by the plaintiffs.




GS2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ftaalltheway

its a civil claim,,, MANY plaintifs file frivolous claims and they get dismissed
faster than it was filed,,,judges are swamped with them

jury?? i think ur stuck in CRIMINAL mode,,,legal relevance?? give head a shake ;)

prejudice a judge? give head a shake ;) say what you will

still doesnt take away from what this claim is all about,,,

A CROCK!!!!!

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The defendant would have to file a motion for dismiss alleging its frivolous. I don't see that happening because I don't see it as frivolous. I could see the defendant filling a claim to to try strike the charge(s) for lack of stating a proper claim, although it would have to be based on law why its not a proper claim.



GS2

As I've posted all along, DN would need to be challenged in court -at a cost very likely greater than the $3500 first letter demand- that their evidence, consisting solely of proof of purchase of IKS codes, is not sufficient to enable a judgment in their favor, as compensation for their alleged theft of their service claim.

They can't show proof that the defendant owns a satellite receiver, perhaps no proof that there's a dish on his roof, and perhaps no proof that he actually connected to the server. Without at least two of these additional factors to support their claim, all they can show is intent, and in civil, intent ain't enough.

Now that being said, so far as we know, no cases have actually been challenged in court, and until that occurs, if ever, all we can do is speculate about it.

BTW, someone posted about criminal court...Let's understand that DN is suing in civil court. Cases referred to criminal so far have not been end users, AFAIK.

In my honest opinion there is no getting away from this,
If they take you to court you could try and claim you didn't use the codes, but you still bought them, and they are only for one reason, to recive pay tv service illegally.

If I was caught with drugs in my pocket, I cant claim, well I didn't use those drugs, I just bought them to have them.

It was a donation to them.

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Originally Posted by noveon7

It was a donation to them.

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good luck using that for defense

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Originally Posted by nrules387

In my honest opinion there is no getting away from this,
If they take you to court you could try and claim you didn't use the codes, but you still bought them, and they are only for one reason, to recive pay tv service illegally.

If I was caught with drugs in my pocket, I cant claim, well I didn't use those drugs, I just bought them to have them.

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In that case they will charge you with possession in criminal court not civil. People have to stop comparing I had drugs which is a criminal matter to piracy which is a civil matter.

If one were to challenge DN's claims and were to win, would they be entitled to counter sue for the expenses incurred?

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Originally Posted by walter

If one were to challenge DN's claims and were to win, would they be entitled to counter sue for the expenses incurred?

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no, thats the bad part, DN knows this, thats why they sent the letters, to get as mutch money as they can before they loose in court,
and no they dont have to give the money back for all the demand letters that were allready payed if they loose in court, so you can
bet they will drag it out for as long as they can.
i still say they will need server logs or your isp logs.

Make a counter offer before just sending them the money. I don't think the damages to DN is greater than $100 US for any one user. Odds are in a civil case the judge would send the parties to mediation anyway.

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Originally Posted by jvvh5897

Make a counter offer before just sending them the money. I don't think the damages to DN is greater than $100 US for any one user. Odds are in a civil case the judge would send the parties to mediation anyway.

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By all means try to settle with a lesser amount. They might perfer to wrap it up and eliminate the court costs.



GS2

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Originally Posted by walter

If one were to challenge DN's claims and were to win, would they be entitled to counter sue for the expenses incurred?

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No; however, nothing would prevent someone from suing the bastards in small claims court for the $ limit in that venue, for the economic damage they suffered as a direct cause of the original DN lawsuit. It would be a separate case entirely, and in the same vein that DN originally used (anyone can lodge suit anyone else for anything).

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Originally Posted by Gunsmoke2 - GS2

By all means try to settle with a lesser amount. They might perfer to wrap it up and eliminate the court costs.

GS2

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Do you think that would work after the civil suit was filed?

i would like to see one go to court just to see what info they do have other than PP.

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Originally Posted by iq180

i would like to see one go to court just to see what info they do have other than PP.

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Maybe I'll start a defence fund and get rich. PM me for PayPal info.

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Originally Posted by hondoharry

Do you think that would work after the civil suit was filed?

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It might. Better chances are before when you received the demand letter.



GS2

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Originally Posted by Anubis

In that case they will charge you with possession in criminal court not civil. People have to stop comparing I had drugs which is a criminal matter to piracy which is a civil matter.

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These are being done in civil ...but in Canada it can go either way .Am sure the same in the States .

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Consequences

There are consequences for breaking any law. Breaking or infringing the copyright law is no different. The consequences of infringing the copyright law can be civil or criminal, and are set out in the copyright legislation.

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hxxp://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/ccl/aboutCopyright.html

And at the bottom of this one by the rcmp hxxp://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/services/sef-fis/prop_intel-eng.htm

I think the oped word is ..They choose to do this civil right now .

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Originally Posted by iq180

i would like to see one go to court just to see what info they do have other than PP.

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You just might get your wish.

Attachment 17711

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Originally Posted by alex70olds

You just might get your wish.

Attachment 17711

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There we go!!!!!!... About time....... http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28.../big-balls.gif

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Originally Posted by alex70olds

You just might get your wish.

Attachment 17711

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Well good for Kailas. Hope he comes out of this unscathed. I see he's asking for his costs back. Everyone here says you can't do that.

c/p
Defendant prays that the Plaintiff take nothing and the Defendant have judgment against the Plaintiff and recover the costs of suit herein, and such other relief the court may deem proper.

It will be interesting to see if others will follow with their own filings.

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Originally Posted by bkr™

It will be interesting to see if others will follow with their own filings.

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You can most like count on that if he wins.

I noticed that he is going to make DN prove that he has a satellite receiver, and that he connected to the server (just as I had suggested as a defense).