OTA Antenna

guys I have a 15 year old OTA antenna on a motor, I don't like the cable on it, almost looks like rg59, I have four tv's in the house. my cable run would run down the OTA antenna pole, i would then need a 2way splitter, having one run go completely different direction to bedroom via outside and thru window. the second run goes opposite way, were it will feed three tv's. so once the run reaches the basement I will use a 3way splitter to feed the other tv's. would I need any sort of amplifier for such long runs and all the splitters? the one run might be 60ft, the second close to 100ft. I am making these changes because I find I don't get all the channels all the time. for example city tv not always, channel 2, 4, and 7 in out. I am wondering if this is weather of power issue? funny enough one tv seems to pick up channels better than others, you can be in one room it has channel 49, and the other room the different make in tv doesn't pick up the channel, even thought there all off the same antenna. The antenna is in great shape, it sits about 30 to 40 feet high, I am between Toronto and mississauga by the lake, so I feel I should get most channels quit easily.

Different tv's have different tuners. That would explain why one works better than another. With long runs you may try getting a signal booster to see if that helps.

uhf booster now that the signals are all uhf

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Originally Posted by keegster17

guys I have a 15 year old OTA antenna on a motor, I don't like the cable on it, almost looks like rg59, I have four tv's in the house. my cable run would run down the OTA antenna pole, i would then need a 2way splitter, having one run go completely different direction to bedroom via outside and thru window. the second run goes opposite way, were it will feed three tv's. so once the run reaches the basement I will use a 3way splitter to feed the other tv's. would I need any sort of amplifier for such long runs and all the splitters? the one run might be 60ft, the second close to 100ft. I am making these changes because I find I don't get all the channels all the time. for example city tv not always, channel 2, 4, and 7 in out. I am wondering if this is weather of power issue? funny enough one tv seems to pick up channels better than others, you can be in one room it has channel 49, and the other room the different make in tv doesn't pick up the channel, even thought there all off the same antenna. The antenna is in great shape, it sits about 30 to 40 feet high, I am between Toronto and mississauga by the lake, so I feel I should get most channels quit easily.

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Coax will age over time, especially the stuff used years ago, replacing it and the 300 ohm to 75 ohm transformer at the antenna will work wonders.

Also look at the antenna, is there a small box up there?

If so then you may also have a pre-amp of some sort, this would also have a DC power supply inside the house somewhere, this pre-amp may also need to be replaced.

If the antenna is in good shape with none of the radials missing or bent then it does not need to be replaced only the coax.(and maybe the pre-amp)

Here is a site to go to, it will tell you what OTA stations are available at your location and what type of antenna (your may be fine) to use.

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www.tvfool.com

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It will give you a link that can be posted back here (it wont give away your exact location)(and you know how not to post a live link) this way I can look it over and give you a better idea on what to do.

Now for the splitter, some are balanced this means that the signals are the same level at all ports, but they are dropped by 3 to 6 dB, this is 1/2 to 1/4 of your RF input voltage. (not that bad)

Explanation: If the RF voltage was at 1 volt RMS, then the output voltage on a two way splitter at both outputs would be 1/2 a volt RMS, add the loss for the coax and you could have signal problems on the long run.

You can get an amplified splitter (4 way) if you don't have the pre-amp at the antenna, this will compensate for the coax loss and splitter loss.


Do the TVfool report, lets see whats going on.

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Originally Posted by zelig

uhf booster now that the signals are all uhf

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Not all the TV signals are in the UHF band, there are still some in the VHF high band, the TVfool report will tell all.

It is possible w/your antenna being 15 years old is not a true uhf/vhf antenna, or the ballum is weak.

I would suspect the 75/300 ohm bauln coil and/or coax first, I have 40 year old antennas at many a customers houses, they work fine after replacing ether the pre-amps, baulin coils or coax.

If the antenna was designed as a VHF/UHF yagi (or omni) it will still work fine for all the HDTV channels now out there.

how or where do I get this link Terryl? there is a box by antenna, it is high up so I will have to take a look to see what is up there. should I take a pic of antenna and cable, plus box? i will try to get all info. the cable is a rg6 like cable, very hard, not as thick as typical rg6 cable. I mentioned a little bit in another post, but wanted to start over and get this system going correct. the Antenna has no rust and looks good. We had a old one but was replaced about 10 plus years ago by insurance due to a tree storm, so I think it should be good, I think it was quit expensive back then. what cable should I purchase? brand name?

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http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94401f718a01

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not sure if this is a live link? sorry.

where is this baulin transformer located?

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Originally Posted by keegster17

where is this baulin transformer located?

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It would be located all the way up by the antenna.

The normal TV antenna is a balanced 300 ohm system, when you use 75 coax you have to change it from a 300 ohm balanced to a 75 ohm un-balanced system,as one side of the coax is grounded.

So to do this you use a 300 ohm balanced to 75 ohm un-balanced transformer, or in short a Balun coil.

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Originally Posted by keegster17

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http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94401f718a01

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not sure if this is a live link? sorry.

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Nope not now.


OK it looks like you in an area with some good stations all around you, and a few are in the VHF high band, so that rotor is going to come in handy.

The ones in green can be received with an indoor antenna, the ones in yellow would need an outdoor antenna, and the ones in pink would need a massive antenna on a taller mast or tower to get.

If you click on the call letters (like WBBZ-TV) for the stations in the pink zone you will see what is in the way.(according to the plot, it's the Earth that's in the way)(I don't care what they say the Earth is not flat)

The box up by the antenna is a pre-amp, you may have the power supply by one of the TV sets inside, without the power supply you wont get that many stations, the pre-amp is compensating for the long runs of coax and the splitter.

For OTA TV signals you can go to radio shack for the coax.

Can you post a photo of the antenna you have now?

Attachment 21312
ok here are my pics. I was looking at the cable, it must be hard to change out, as it is connected right at the top of the antenna, little scary being 40 feet.

Attachment 21313
the first pic is channel master box for the motor.

Well, that is a nice antenna. Both uhf and vhf, but all I see is the rotor, no pre-amp. You might not have to go all the way to the top of antenna to amplify for the rest of the cable run and splitters--just try to put in amp close to the antenna as you can.

jvvh5897 how do you know it is uhf and vhf?

So would I cut cable were I can get to, and add a connector and run new line?

Does the pre-amp usually have a housing for outdoor use?

Also who's splitter's are the best, and will I get a 2way and a 3way as I mentioned my setup.

Well that antenna is a VHF/UHF combo, if you look athe the very front it has some small radials, then a "V" shaped reflector, this is the UHF section.

I would drop the whole antenna (you may need some help for that) and replace the coax all the way down to the sets, the bauln coil will go right at the antenna, be sure to get one rated for outdoor use.

As far as splitters radio shack will work OK as far as a source for them, but if you need to split it more the 2 ways I would get an amplified splitter, if it has to go outdoors then get one that is weather proof.

I would not use a splitter after another splitter, this may cause the signals to be too low to work at the last set.

I also could not see the bauln coil for that antenna, it may be at the top, or that antenna may have one that is integrated into the antenna. and the coax going to it does not have the proper slack in it to keep it from binding up when the rotor turns, use a loop about 8 to 10 inches long, attached to the mast above and below the rotor, use about ten wraps of good outdoor electrical tape to secure the coax to the mast.

So Terryl, just to be clear, I will change out cable right from the antenna which, I assume is connected right to antenna?, and this coil is located in the open, not housed by anything? and I should change this coil? And what about pre-amp, don't worry about it?

Yes, change the coax all the way up, and when you lower the antenna you should see how the coax is interfaced with the antenna, some had one that was integrated right into the antenna, others just have 2 wingnuts to attach the wire leads from the coil to the antenna.

This is what the coil will look like,(somewhat)Attachment 21318coax goes in one end, the other leads go to the antenna.

I don't think you need a pre-amp, one is only needed if the coax is real long (over 100 feet) or you have several TV sets to supply through an un-amplified splitter.

well Terryl this is for 3-4 tv's and I may need two splitters? So now what? lol

Get one amplified splitter, they have 4 way ones that will work fine for your location.

One like this will work fine for your app, if you need more then 4 ways an 8 way is the next step.

like which one? lol. and thanks for your help, so you think I will see better results?

Oppps sorry my fault, too much scotch.....Here it is again.

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http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Vision-CVT-2-4PIA-Amplified/dp/B000KPS3GS

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And yes it will help.

ok perfect. so any amplified splitter will be fine correct? easy on the scotch. lol

Yup, any will work,but if you going to use it outside then a weather proof one would be the best choice........Hic!!! ......Hic!!!!!! .......Hic!!!!!!

ok, so I removed one splitter and things have already improved. I had a 2way and a 3way, removed the 2way, and managed a stronger signal picked up 25 channels total, couple news ones channel 2 i got two new ones, and picked up chanel 26.1 as well. I think I will continue to change cable at some point, one question, does the amplified splitter require a ac outlet to be plugged in? if so where do most people plug it in if it is outside?

You can buy ones that inject power onto the coax--so plug in somewhere that is close to outlet near tv.

Interestingly, almost all standard splitters that I have tested pass DC to all ports. There are some built for satellite use that have DC block on one port and pass DC to one port. I often use standard splitters on satellite lines--the LNB amplifies up the signal so a splitter does not affect your STB and you can test the signal on the second port or feed another box (DC block might be needed to second box, but I have a few DC block gizmos)

Terryl, I am back at this one, I have not yet, changed out the cable for the antenna, lot's of work, so what I did was I had a Sat cable unused so I went out and bought a Focus-8HD 90D 8 bay antenna. I wanted to compare this with old Antenna. now keep in mind this antenna is about 10 feet lower than the old one. a few quick questions. I live near Lake ontario, Etobicoke/missisauga border, where would be the best place to aim this antenna, should I aim one towards Toronto and the other bay towards buffalo? I at one time pulled 35 channels, on the old antenna i pulled 23 channels, the funny thing about the focus antenna, i seem to be missing channels like fox 29 tv, 4 and 7, are not always coming up either, well have yet to pull in fox 29. i am comparing the two antennas because the old one, on a good sunny day i got channels like 2,4,7,26,49, etc, but not so good days i do not, what could be the issue, do you think the antenna is not strong enough?, or could it be this old issue with the cable? I am not sure with the focus I won't have the same issue on a not so nice day as well, but this why I am experimenting. I thought it was easier than running all new cable on the old antenna, plus someone told me possibly the old antenna may bot be strong enough, than the newer HD channels, is this true?

Hi guys, back at this one. I have reviewed and noticed Terryl mentions amplified splitter, and Jvvh mentioned pre amp, what do you think is better? I did change the cable from Antenna to the house, from the house in, I did not bother, to much work. I also changed the Balun, (channel master brand). I think there was mention I might have a pre amp, but I do not, the box near my antenna was the Motor housing. So which should I get? If I got a pre amp, can I add it maybe ten feet down from Antenna for easy access? When I first changed the Balun, I received a crazy amount of channels, but as time went on, it seems I am back to square one and getting half about 20 something.

A pre-amp should be as close to antenna as possible. A power splitter would be used in the house as you have to run coax from each output to your end point--one does not want to do that at the antenna even if you have a weather-tight enclosure.

The drop in channels is a bit of a puzzle. A balun would not go bad, so, I would think that you had good propagation conditions for a while and then they went poor--that is a sign that you are far from the transmitters, have an obstruction in the path and at times the weather permits better propagation but at times restricts propagation.

ok thanks. Yeah it was odd, I had like 40 channels, then next day pretty much gone. Is a pre-amp better than a power splitter? which do you think will work better? I am right near lake Ontario so I should have very little obstruction.

couple other quick questions... should the large section of the antenna face towards where i am aiming antenna or small v section? also you guys suggested power splitter, my splitter right now is outside under wooden eaves, will this work as i assume i need to power it to a electrical outlet? Also why would my motor all of a sudden not work, new issue? lol

Weather conditions over a lake can create odd density gradients and density gradients are why radio/TV signals bend as they go through them.
Motor going out could be lots of things: it is old and rusty and does not have enough lubricant, or a wire could have come off.
I'm not sure I can picture your antenna from what you are saying, but a "small V section" is likely the UHF part of the antenna and it should point to where you want to get signal. The largest elements of an antenna go to the back and away from where you want signa
I suspect your power splitter came with instructions--you should follow them.

Thanks Jvvh5897, I will check the motor, and lubricate it, my Antenna faces the right way based on what you have said. and I will go out and get a pre amp and try.

I agree with some of what JVVH has said, however in many many many years of field repairs to antenna systems I find that mounting the pre-amp where it can be easily and/or safely reached is the best setup, if the mast is 30 feet tall off the roof and the pre-amp is right below the antenna then you will have to drop the whole mast to replace it, and they do go bad.

A short 10, 20 or 30 foot piece of good RG-6 quad coax will not drop the signals all that much, the pre-amp will work just as good.

However using one with a shot over a large body of water will/can cause problems, as JVVH mentioned the signals can and will bounce and that causes a out of phase signal drop or total loss of signal, this because the bounced signal is 180 degrees out of phase from the main signal, if you use a pre-amp you will also amplify the bounced signal.

The normal TV antenna like you have now has a beam angle and beamwidth to it, this if looking from the top looks like a stretched out tear drop, (pointy end at the front of the antenna) it will look the same from the side, it is this beamwidth and angle that is also picking up the bounced signals, one thing that has been done is to tilt the antenna up (or down) to keep the bounced signals out of the main lobe of the received beamwidth, you will need to know how wide the receiver beamwidth is for the antenna you have, then with a little trigonometry you can calculate the amount of tilt you may need on the antenna to still get the main signal and try to reject the bounced signal.

This may prove difficult depending on the terrain and where the lake/bay/river/ocean is located from you.

To help you understand the beamwidth here is an application PDF file for a UHF antenna, the 91XG from Antennas Direct is a very good high gain UHF antenna, as you can see the first picture is looking at the forward gain and receive beamwidth of the antenna, (looking down at the antenna) the second one is it's receive beamwidth angle looking at it from the side, you can see the angles that the signals could be picked up at.

On this antenna the half power beamwidth for TV channel 14 is 51 degrees, if you tipped the antenna up about 12 degrees you can drop the bounced signal severely, how much ???? it all depends on the antenna.

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https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/91XG-TDS.pdf

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Thanks Terryl, great info. but nit grasping the learning curve. So are you now saying, for get the pre-amp?

Hi guys back at this one. I just bought a CM-700-1 Tuner and a CM-3414 Distribution Amp. I got a good deal so I bought them. Is there any benefit to this tuner vs running antenna cable, direct to tv? Anyways my questions is, I bought the amp to experiment with better signal quality, but now I might have a dilemma. I have one cable coming down from antenna to a two-way splitter, branching off to two tv's at opposite ends of the house. Ideally, I would like to remove splitter and replace it with the amp. However because the splitter is outside, this will be a issue to connect the amp, as I need a power supply. I have nothing outside or nearby, So can I keep the splitter and connect the distribution amp after the splitter in the line.

You can, but the best place to put an amp is as close to the antenna as possible. The splitter with decrease signal to both port's output and an amp should be before that splitter. You can buy cheap in-line amps that you run the power to them on the coax line itself, the power will run through the splitter if you have to do it that way, but it is better to get the signal into the building before splitting it. An amplifier can cause issues if you don't use it correctly (mostly an issue when you have strong, near-by transmitters).