DN $3500 demand

[jazzman]

Well that sucks, it sounds to me like dish must have a strong case against the end users then and that's not good news for anyone. Thanks again, jazz.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Could be for many other reasons: You purchased the code for someone else. You thought you were helping Wuf with his mounting medical bills for himself or his wife whoever it was. You had actually thought about going into the code sale business yourself. You bought the code but then didn't realize how it fully worked and you didn't have all the necessary equipment needed.

Now of course all these scenarios are contingent upon you having NOT posted on the open forums. There would have to be no evidence existence of you saying "Codes work great", "Nice fight", or "Codes not working" so forth. Also each of these would be just as easily explained away just as easily as DN can explain that you DID use them. They have no more evidence supporting that you actually used the codes then you have evidence supporting that you didn't use them.

But see the time to have done this was with the first case. Now its engrained and its precedent. There is a term that means "stick by your decision even if its wrong" and it slips my mind right now. We just learned it in my POLI SCI class. Perhaps you know it GS2? Basically once a decision is rendered a judge is unlikely to retract the ruling based on this term. Even if the decision was wrong in the first place many, many other cases have been decided on this one case. Therefore the decision stands and what is done is amendments are made to slowly chip away at the law and reverse it effectively.



None that I'm aware of.

So your going to bring someone else in by saying that. When your deposed on that question what are you going to say ? you forgot the name of the person Etc. ? People try that stuff and than the court says they don't believe you when your answers don't make sense or add up.


And you think a court is going to believe you bought codes to help pay medical bills for him or his wife. And that you thought of going into the same illegal business but did not have the equipment. Basically your saying the plaintiff and court are stupid or will be stupid. Have you read any of sat cases where people came up with made up stories and how that worked out for them. ?


Each case is separate so one case a defendant could lose and than in another one could win.


If there is no depo from any admin than why is out there. Is it to say well what about if some admin swore to this or that ? if defendants can get some supportive help that is good but what admin is going to get himself involved.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

OK but the whole reasoning is buying a code is not illegal in and of itself. Like another poster said that is only one part of the equation. To be guilty of "signal circumvention" they need to prove the code was used for theft. They cannot prove that with the evidence they have. I say this because I highly doubt they have any ISP records. They are getting you into court under the guise of you being guilty of "buying" a code, however there is no statute (not the DCMA one they are citing anyways) that allows for a charge like that. I know Alex said they were charging wrong doing under a different article of copyright law and I haven't reviewed that. In order for you to be guilty under the DMCA (1201)(1)(a) there has to have been "circumvention" taking place. At least under that statute of the DMCA they are suing under. Had they sued you under article (1201)(2)(a) of the DMCA then all bets are off as mere possession of a code is enough to find you guilty under that article.

Its kind of like the "burglary tools" charge. I'm sure everyone has a screwdriver and/or bolt
cutters in their trunk or possibly both. Technically those are "burglary tools" but you would need more evidence to prove it. Now if you can add a sky mask or gloves in the trunk then OK now we have a possibility of burglary tools. These codes can be reasoned as the same type of thing. In and of themselves they are nothing. But if you start adding forum posts and PM's well then OK now we are getting somewhere. By themselves they are nothing just as a pair of bolt cutters would be nothing.

You seem to be forgetting this:

A preponderance of evidence has been described as just enough evidence to make it more likely than not that the fact the claimant seeks to prove is true

GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

True, if you buy a code how can that be used as circumvention on its own, its can't Lets say for giggles a old women buys a code, has no means to use it cause she lives in a nursing home. Could she be charged?.....NO WAY.

The problem is, that's not the cases they are going after even if they did exist. The big problem is the other evidence ( as sod mentioned) that starts putting nails in the coffins.

You add the possible p.m's and pp transactions along with sworn affidavits from wuff and it would be a tough row to hoe.

Once again, keep in mind this is civil not criminal and they don't need to prove anything, just 51%.

In that situation it would be more likely than not that she did not know what she was doing when buying the code and I could see a court favoring this defendant.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

No case has made it to the discovery phase yet. We still don't know everything they have.

I was trying to tell TNF that who made some comment that it would happen in 30 days of request and therefore we have seen all the evidence. The discovery process can be long before both parties exchange all information. If no defendant pushes and defends a case we might not see discovery. If a defendant is defending we are first going to see his answer to the complaint and is likely to make some motion to have some or all charges dismissed for lack of stating a claim or whatever. If there is discovery to come in a case its down the road.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Dish filed 5 more cases Friday in Federal Court attributed to wuff. That said, the total number of cases filled is miniscule compared to the reported 4,000 + codes he sold. As I said before, we still don't know everything they have. Here are 2 defendants that did go out and hire an attorney.

Attachment 19327
Attachment 19328

Now I will say this, apparently Ech0's lawyers then gave their respective attorneys a peak of what they had, and that resulted in the following.

Attachment 19329
Attachment 19330

In davis answer to the complaint he denied the allegations and asked for poof

The Defendant does not possess sufficient information to admit or deny the allegations in paragraph 1 of the Plaintiffs’ COMPLAINT and accordingly denies the same and demands strict proof thereof

Just over a month later he settles and agress to the circumventing the signal claim against him. I doubt the plaintiff had 100% concrete proof he used the code but could have had the balance needed as far evidence to sway a court to believing the plaintiff's claim that the lawyer for the defendant thought he would lose or that his chances were only so so.



GS2

[sodusme]

sod, I respect you and completely agree with what you have been saying all along in this thread BUT the precedent that has been set here is that it's cheaper to pay the $3,500 than it would be to hire an attorney to fight this all the way to the end. I really wish someone with a crap load of money to spare and their own attorneys on retainer would fight this because I too believe Dish would be handed their a** on a silver platter. Of course if they had that much money I don't think they would be in this "hobby" they'd simply pay for the Dish everything pack and have all they need. Then again if dish thought there was a possibility of losing a case I'm sure they would just dismiss the charges with prejudice to keep it from setting a real precedent and putting an end to all this BS extortion. You can rant all you want but in the end this is the way I see it...JMHO.

Thanks in all honestly I just love to debate stuff and especially anything technology related. Before I was laid off my brother in law who worked for the same company and me would ride around in a work truck sometimes for hours and I mean 6-8 hours together. We would debate everything from politics, to religion to what we ate for supper the night before.

So your going to bring someone else in by saying that. When your deposed on that question what are you going to say ? you forgot the name of the person Etc. ? People try that stuff and than the court says they don't believe you when your answers don't make sense or add up.


And you think a court is going to believe you bought codes to help pay medical bills for him or his wife. And that you thought of going into the same illegal business but did not have the equipment. Basically your saying the plaintiff and court are stupid or will be stupid. Have you read any of sat cases where people came up with made up stories and how that worked out for them. ?


Each case is separate so one case a defendant could lose and than in another one could win.


If there is no depo from any admin than why is out there. Is it to say well what about if some admin swore to this or that ? if defendants can get some supportive help that is good but what admin is going to get himself involved.



GS2

Admitting that were you going into the same "illegal" business is no crime. You forget that just "contemplating" something is not the same as committing the actual crime.

How many people have "thought" about killing someone but are obviously not behind bars for it? How many people have thought about killing someone and have even bought a gun and are not behind bars? Plenty you can bet, so yeah the defense of "Your honor I was going to get into the business of selling codes because I believe it to be quite lucrative" could work. You would be free to order codes with the intent of selling them. Until you've actually sold them where would the crime be? If you haven't used them OR sold them then no crime exists.

Of course you have to realize you can't be an idiot when you go to court. Not that anyone here is but you have to have the story rehearsed and you have to stick to it verbatim. You also have to be able to stay cool under fire and not crack.

Most likely no forum admin would do that but if your own posts about these codes are to be taken seriously and so damning, why are posts from others about the freezing/downtime/outages not just as compelling? Because the posts aren't made by yourself? Remember a thief, is a thief, is a thief, it doesn't matter if its yourself or someone else posting it it should carry the same weight if its posted on a piracy board.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

The Gunkel answer to the complaint and what he said was even more compelling. He basically denies circumventing, having a sat receiver now or ever having one, accessing the server.


Less than two months later he agress to a judgment of $10,000.


So Sud do you think the plaintiff had evidence the defendant used the code or had just had damaging evidence in general, or that the defendant needed to answer the complaint in a hurry and did not want to be in default so he hired an attortney to do that ?



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Thanks in all honestly I just love to debate stuff and especially anything technology related. Before I was laid off my brother in law who worked for the same company and me would ride around in a work truck sometimes for hours and I mean 6-8 hours together. We would debate everything from politics, to religion to what we ate for supper the night before.



Admitting that were you going into the same "illegal" business is no crime. You forget that just "contemplating" something is not the same as committing the actual crime.

How many people have "thought" about killing someone but are obviously not behind bars for it? How many people have thought about killing someone and have even bought a gun and are not behind bars? Plenty you can bet, so yeah the defense of "Your honor I was going to get into the business of selling codes because I believe it to be quite lucrative" could work. You would be free to order codes with the intent of selling them. Until you've actually sold them where would the crime be? If you haven't used them OR sold them then no crime exists.

Of course you have to realize you can't be an idiot when you go to court. Not that anyone here is but you have to have the story rehearsed and you have to stick to it verbatim. You also have to be able to stay cool under fire and not crack.

Most likely no forum admin would do that but if your own posts about these codes are to be taken seriously and so damning, why are posts from others about the freezing/downtime/outages not just as compelling? Because the posts aren't made by yourself? Remember a thief, is a thief, is a thief, it doesn't matter if its yourself or someone else posting it it should carry the same weight if its posted on a piracy board.

I don't think admitting you thought of going into the same illegal business is going to help your end user case that your innocent.


You the defendant self incriminating yourself in posts you wrote yourself will be damaging if your saying your innocent in your defense even if some admin said that in a post at lest that is how I see it.



GS2

[Hannibalector]

In davis answer to the complaint he denied the allegations and asked for poof





Just over a month later he settles and agress to the circumventing the signal claim against him. I doubt the plaintiff had 100% concrete proof he used the code but could have had the balance needed as far evidence to sway a court to believing the plaintiff's claim that the lawyer for the defendant thought he would lose or that his chances were only so so.



GS2

exigences IMO

[Hannibalector]

hats off to dishtrasher TNF and sodusme, nice to know theres people out there who still call a spade a spade and aren't on the rah rah team for NAgra

[sodusme]

The Gunkel answer to the complaint and what he said was even more compelling. He basically denies circumventing, having a sat receiver now or ever having one, accessing the server.


Less than two months later he agress to a judgment of $10,000.


So Sud do you think the plaintiff had evidence the defendant used the code or had just had damaging evidence in general, or that the defendant needed to answer the complaint in a hurry and did not want to be in default so he hired an attortney to do that ?



GS2

I'm not sure what to think I'd have to see what "other" evidence they had if any. The only real evidence they could have that the code was actually used was either reseller panel information or ISP records. That is all that could exist that would confirm without a doubt that the code had in fact been used. Of course even i.p. information is not so cut and dry. I can point to at least two court cases right now where judges have ruled that an i.p. does not equate to an individual. So even if they had i.p. information but had absolutely NO forum posts or PM's to go on I would still wager that a good argument could be made that the i.p. information could have been spoofed. Now that goes without saying though the Paypal information is still going to sink you. But just throwing it out there that an i.p. does not unequivocally confirm that the "owner" of that i.p. was engaged in the activity that the i.p. was found to be engaged in.

I could also prove that a Paypal account could be hijacked. In fact I know people right now on the "other" boards that I frequent that sell stolen Paypals. Since all we have to have is 51% then someone hijacked my Paypal and spoofed my i.p. and and hijacked my VB account and trust me on this when I say if I wanted to make them look like fools on any of those scenarios I definitely could. I know i.p.'s and security in and out and can hold my own with anyone on the discussion of both. I know first hand how easy it is to crack a VB users account. Now I know all this put together might sound like a stretch but I could seem it together to get 51%. All you need is that seed of doubt.

In fact maybe I downloaded an infected file from here that was actually a virus. That virus contained a backdoor Trojan. The facilitator of that Trojan was able to gain control of several of my online accounts. My VB account, my Paypal account, and he also was using my i.p. remotely. Hell you could even go to a local Starbucks or Library and log into your bank account and email a couple times from proxies so you had a rogue i.p. seen logging into it so if they ever pulled records from your bank account or email it would appear as though someone else had accessed those accounts.

Now I actually had this happen believe it or not and the hacker accessed one account in particular using proxies from Pakistan. But he had gained access to my email (Gmail notifies you when your email is accessed from a foreign i.p.) as well as an online account on a particular forum where I hold Elite status and was even posting under my nick. So before you say this can't possibly happen it most definitely can. Had he chosen to he could have accessed my bank account and Paypal before I realized I was infected but he didn't. If it can happen to me it can happen to anyone.

I don't think admitting you thought of going into the same illegal business is going to help your end user case that your innocent.


You the defendant self incriminating yourself in posts you wrote yourself will be damaging if your saying your innocent in your defense even if some admin said that in a post at lest that is how I see it.



GS2

But without forum posts and PM's and any other information they "might" have there is no "end user case". So admitting that you were going into business selling these codes and purchased a code or two would have no bearing on a case that doesn't exist. In fact we still don't know if they are taking people to court that had no forum posts and PM's to harvest. Alex said these court cases are but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the codes that were sold. So there must be some kind of "vetting" process for who gets a letter and who doesn't?

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

exigences IMO

Exigences huh ?



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

hats off to dishtrasher TNF and sodusme, nice to know theres people out there who still call a spade a spade and aren't on the rah rah team for NAgra

Immature. Did it ever occur to you that some people just like to call it the way it is, a spade a spade, the way it has been, without having to do with any rah rah or without being on any team.


The rah rah that some people like yourself bring out from going back over 10 years have never done anything for anyone in court or presented with a legal problem. Some people just believe in a dose of reality is the best truth for people whether bad or good.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I'm not sure what to think I'd have to see what "other" evidence they had if any. The only real evidence they could have that the code was actually used was either reseller panel information or ISP records. That is all that could exist that would confirm without a doubt that the code had in fact been used. Of course even i.p. information is not so cut and dry. I can point to at least two court cases right now where judges have ruled that an i.p. does not equate to an individual. So even if they had i.p. information but had absolutely NO forum posts or PM's to go on I would still wager that a good argument could be made that the i.p. information could have been spoofed. Now that goes without saying though the Paypal information is still going to sink you. But just throwing it out there that an i.p. does not unequivocally confirm that the "owner" of that i.p. was engaged in the activity that the i.p. was found to be engaged in.

So it does not occur to you that they did not have ISP records showing it was used but had a lot of evidence that the lawyers suggested to their clients it might be better to settle. ?

I could also prove that a Paypal account could be hijacked. In fact I know people right now on the "other" boards that I frequent that sell stolen Paypals. Since all we have to have is 51% then someone hijacked my Paypal and spoofed my i.p. and and hijacked my VB account and trust me on this when I say if I wanted to make them look like fools on any of those scenarios I definitely could. I know i.p.'s and security in and out and can hold my own with anyone on the discussion of both. I know first hand how easy it is to crack a VB users account. Now I know all this put together might sound like a stretch but I could seem it together to get 51%. All you need is that seed of doubt.

In fact maybe I downloaded an infected file from here that was actually a virus. That virus contained a backdoor Trojan. The facilitator of that Trojan was able to gain control of several of my online accounts. My VB account, my Paypal account, and he also was using my i.p. remotely. Hell you could even go to a local Starbucks or Library and log into your bank account and email a couple times from proxies so you had a rogue i.p. seen logging into it so if they ever pulled records from your bank account or email it would appear as though someone else had accessed those accounts.

Now I actually had this happen believe it or not and the hacker accessed one account in particular using proxies from Pakistan. But he had gained access to my email (Gmail notifies you when your email is accessed from a foreign i.p.) as well as an online account on a particular forum where I hold Elite status and was even posting under my nick. So before you say this can't possibly happen it most definitely can. Had he chosen to he could have accessed my bank account and Paypal before I realized I was infected but he didn't. If it can happen to me it can happen to anyone.

So your suggesting someone should show how a Paypal account can be hijacked or how easy it is to hack a VB user's account, or maybe they got a virus as their arguments for defense ? Why do you think it is none of the lawyers have offered this. ? I just don't think you aware what happens when your deposed on stories you made up. Its like the story the guy ( SuperStar ) made up about the computer. The court did not buy it and said they believe he just lied.

But without forum posts and PM's and any other information they "might" have there is no "end user case". So admitting that you were going into business selling these codes and purchased a code or two would have no bearing on a case that doesn't exist. In fact we still don't know if they are taking people to court that had no forum posts and PM's to harvest. Alex said these court cases are but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the codes that were sold. So there must be some kind of "vetting" process for who gets a letter and who doesn't?

Its your opinion they would have no case. They have a case with the business records they have plus the declaration by Wulfman.


We have no idea how many letters were sent and how many more they are to be sent if any but its unlikely everyone will get one or be brought into court.


If your admitting you were going into business than you got a letter and are being sued otherwise you would not be saying anything.



GS2