DN $3500 demand

[ranger]

I think many of you folks are just posting to be posting ?? I have read most of the posts that people shared about their Certified Lawyer letters and with the assistance of the reseller, they have the buyers E-Mail, Site user name, home address, the code numbers, port information, date of purchase and for time limit, pay-pal payment information and they are moving to Federal Court... What other information do you think they need to proceed ???

[hondoharry]

I think many of you folks are just posting to be posting ?? I have read most of the posts that people shared about their Certified Lawyer letters and with the assistance of the reseller, they have the buyers E-Mail, home address, the code numbers, port information, date of purchase and for time limit, pay-pal payment information and they are moving to Federal Court... What other information do you think they need to proceed ???

ISP logs showing dates and times connected to the private server.

[sodusme]

ISP logs showing dates and times connected to the private server.

Now if they have those....then yes your goose is cooked.

I just looked at the letter again and I notice they very cleverly write 'Enclosed for your reference is some of the evidence that has been gathered including....'. That's pretty ambiguous wording and could mean anything.

[ranger]

Well from what I have read many times, they only need to prove in Court is that the purchases were made !!!!!!!!

[jeldf]

Personally I think a better defense is could they prove that you used the code? You have to 'read between the lines' on that demand letter and they are actually stipulating that you used the code, not that the code ever worked or didn't work. To me that is the angle I would pursue. Who cares if the code could have, should have, or would have worked....the real issue at hand is did I use the code. Same line of defense for burglary tools. So you got a ski mask and leather gloves and a screwdriver in your trunk....can those be used for criminal activity....sure they can. But can they prove that you actually used them for that?

Don't get caught up in their circular maze of idiocy guys. By fighting the defense of did these work or can you make them work you are feeding right into their hands. You need to make them prove that you actually used these codes for nefarious purposes. I'll say it again for the 102nd time: Receiving some codes through Paypal does not a pirate make. Its a long stretch to what they are trying to prove here boys.

Your theory does make sense......the only downside I see is the amount of info they really have. If they have ones email address, do they have ones Nic on a Sat Forum Site? If one was dumb enough to ever post they were down on N*P* port xxxxx I would think one would have to take this into consideration in ones decision to pay or fight. I'm sure they would have copies of all threads that say Post if you are up or down....... May be their Ace in the Hole.

[kboom]

Now if they have those....then yes your goose is cooked.

I just looked at the letter again and I notice they very cleverly write 'Enclosed for your reference is some of the evidence that has been gathered including....'. That's pretty ambiguous wording and could mean anything.

And if they have those they could still be monitoring the ones that got the letter. Could be a dangerous situation.

[Hannibalector]

anyone in these situations can call there ISP and ask them if any records have been given over via an order to do so, in other words you can find out yourself

[sodusme]

Well from what I have read many times, they only need to prove in Court is that the purchases were made !!!!!!!!

So these codes were ruled as 'illegal' in a court of law? I'd like to see the ruling please post it.

If purchases were made from an illegal entity i.e. NFPS....then it sounds like to me they should be going after the guys that run NFPS. After all they are running the server and making it possible for the little guy to engage in 'piracy'.


Your theory does make sense......the only downside I see is the amount of info they really have. If they have ones email address, do they have ones Nic on a Sat Forum Site? If one was dumb enough to ever post they were down on N*P* port xxxxx I would think one would have to take this into consideration in ones decision to pay or fight. I'm sure they would have copies of all threads that say Post if you are up or down....... May be their Ace in the Hole.

Yeah each person would have to weigh their own options as to what kind of info. they may have posted on a site.

[hondoharry]

anyone in these situations can call there ISP and ask them if any records have been given over via an order to do so, in other words you can find out yourself

I think they would only bother to request ISP logs if the case actually was going to trial after court ordered arbitration failed to reach an agreement.

[budyyy]

Dunno about down there but most canadian isps refuse to give any info without being court ordered.

[sodusme]

Dunno about down there but most canadian isps refuse to give any info without being court ordered.

Ha...anyone will roll on you in the states. Every new internet bill our fearless leader Obama signs into order strips away another freedom. Big brother already knows too much about what I do online and they are getting the power to know more and more every day.

[1boxman]

I do not think it is that easy to get isp logs in the usa either ..and if they do from want I have seen ..its limited ..unless its has to do with kids or so .

It would take a few bucks and multi times and many orders .For each person.. Do not think there going to do it for each person ..They may ..but might be holding out for the servers .

And they real do not need as far as we can see .

[hondoharry]

I do not think it is that easy to get isp logs in the usa either ..and if they do from want I have seen ..its limited ..unless its has to do with kids or so .

It would take a few bucks and multi times and many orders .For each person.. Do not think there going to do it for each person ..They may ..but might be holding out for the servers .

And they real do not need as far as we can see .

No doubt it's more trouble to get logs from all the ISP's. That's why I said they would only have to do that as a last resort for actual trial. But it isn't all that difficult. There are fewer ISP's now. Comcast may get you most of them. They got a court order with a list of names for PayPal so it would be no problem getting one for ISP's. Asking for each customer's connections to the NFPS and Rocket servers IP or domain.

[steveOtoo]

No doubt it's more trouble to get logs from all the ISP's. That's why I said they would only have to do that as a last resort for actual trial. But it isn't all that difficult. There are fewer ISP's now. Comcast may get you most of them. They got a court order with a list of names for PayPal so it would be no problem getting one for ISP's. Asking for each customer's connections to the NFPS and Rocket servers IP or domain.They did'nt necessarily get a court order from PalPal, howerver they did get a statement of Wufman's account probably provided by Wufman.

[hondoharry]

They did'nt necessarily get a court order from PalPal, howerver they did get a statement of Wufman's account probably provided by Wufman.

PayPal would not hand over the info to a private individual or company without some kind of legal action from a court.

[dishuser]

PayPal would not hand over the info to a private individual or company without some kind of legal action from a court.

paypal and ebay are joined at the hip
try listing a modded ird or cards on ebay...lol

[sodusme]

If you wanna know how easy it is to get ISP logs just look at the people being sued for torrenting. All the watchdog companies like BayTSP and Mediasentry and so forth have to go on is a damn i.p.....and they have no problems getting the ISP to hand over information.

If its that easy for them its a cake walk for DN/Nagra.

[hondoharry]

paypal and ebay are joined at the hip
try listing a modded ird or cards on ebay...lol

Yes, they have been the same company for a number of years now but they still wouldn't give personal customer info to DN without a court order. That's the point.

[dishuser]

Yes, they have been the same company for a number of years now but they still wouldn't give personal customer info to DN without a court order. That's the point.
that I highly doubt

[sodusme]

http://lawmeme.research.yale.edu/modules.php?name=Newsfile=printsid=925


In other words, without a subpoena, eBay will provide all sorts of information to any law enforcement agency for any reason whatsoever. For more about eBay's law enforcement-friendly policy, read on.

Without a subpoena, eBay will provide the following information regarding an eBay user to law enforcement:

Full Name, User ID, Email Address, Street Address, State, City, Zip Code, Phone Number, Country, Company, Password, Secondary Phone, Gender, Personal or Business, Shipping information (Name, Street Address, City, State, Zip)


eBay cooperates with law enforcement inquiries, as well as other third parties to enforce laws, such as: intellectual property rights, fraud and other rights. We can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate, in connection with an investigation of fraud, intellectual property infringements, or other activity that is illegal or may expose us or you to legal liability.

[Grave Digger]

Your theory does make sense......the only downside I see is the amount of info they really have. If they have ones email address, do they have ones Nic on a Sat Forum Site? If one was dumb enough to ever post they were down on N*P* port xxxxx I would think one would have to take this into consideration in ones decision to pay or fight. I'm sure they would have copies of all threads that say Post if you are up or down....... May be their Ace in the Hole.

yes they have the site nics, and webforum posts can and will be used against you in court,

thats why i have been saying for YEARS (even before IKS started) watch what you say on sites like this,

people who go around posting things like "Excellent UFC fight last night! Thanks NFPS!" are complete idiots, give your head a shake and think about what your saying, sometimes saying nothing is better,

but i guess empty heads make the most noise

[hondoharry]

http://lawmeme.research.yale.edu/modules.php?name=Newsfile=printsid=925

Exactly. They will provide info to law enforcement but not to a private corporation like DN or Nagra in a civil matter without a court order. DN HAD to have a court order to get Wuf's customers' names, home addresses, bank info, IP's and transactions. A court order is also needed for ISP logs. No problem for Hagan, Boyle, etc.

[struckrk]

Personally I think a better defense is could they prove that you used the code? You have to 'read between the lines' on that demand letter and they are actually stipulating that you used the code, not that the code ever worked or didn't work. To me that is the angle I would pursue. Who cares if the code could have, should have, or would have worked....the real issue at hand is did I use the code. Same line of defense for burglary tools. So you got a ski mask and leather gloves and a screwdriver in your trunk....can those be used for criminal activity....sure they can. But can they prove that you actually used them for that?

Don't get caught up in their circular maze of idiocy guys. By fighting the defense of did these work or can you make them work you are feeding right into their hands. You need to make them prove that you actually used these codes for nefarious purposes. I'll say it again for the 102nd time: Receiving some codes through Paypal does not a pirate make. Its a long stretch to what they are trying to prove here boys.

I agree with your logic however the judgements keep coming and the cost of fighting it exceeds the settlement amount.

[sodusme]

Exactly. They will provide info to law enforcement but not to a private corporation like DN or Nagra in a civil matter without a court order. DN HAD to have a court order to get Wuf's customers' names, home addresses, bank info, IP's and transactions. A court order is also needed for ISP logs. No problem for Hagan, Boyle, etc.

Not necessarily....


http://lawmeme.research.yale.edu/modules.php?name=Newsfile=printsid=925


Without a subpoena, eBay will provide the following information regarding an eBay user to law enforcement:

Full Name, User ID, Email Address, Street Address, State, City, Zip Code, Phone Number, Country, Company, Password, Secondary Phone, Gender, Personal or Business, Shipping information (Name, Street Address, City, State, Zip)

In addition eBay will provide the following transaction information:

Bidding History on an Item, Other Items for Sale, Feedback about a user, Bidding history of a user, Prices paid for items, Feedback rating, and Chat Room/Bulletin Board (!).

Now for the i.p.'s and bank info. it looks like they would have needed a subpoena....possibly. But I'm sure they have involved some LEA by now. Most likely the feds. Since the transactions occurred across state lines. So out of the 5 pieces of info. only 2 of them really require a subpoena....and we don't even know if they required a subpoena.

[hondoharry]

Ok, that's EBay for mdse sales. PayPal for money transfers is not exactly the same. They may not have the same policy. And who knows about ISP's internal policies. I still don't think PayPal or ISP's will give personal info or logs to a private company or person in a civil disagreement without a court order. They may be bad, but not that bad. With a court order they have to comply, no choice. Sort of like Wuf, no? When they got you by the b*lls.

[cheff]

Everyone is missing the point , They have records of purchase and that's all they need under DCMA. So all this about ISP's or if you even used the code is void.

[sodusme]

Everyone is missing the point , They have records of purchase and that's all they need under DCMA. So all this about ISP's or if you even used the code is void.

No not under the DMCA law they are citing. I actually posted this back on page 12 but I'll c/p it again.


http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap12.html#1201

Digital Millennium Copyright Act 17 U.S.C § 1201(a)(1) is quoted in the letter which is the following paragraph and sub-paragaphs.


(1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

(C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine —

(i) the availability for use of copyrighted works;

(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival, preservation, and educational purposes;

(iii) the impact that the prohibition on the circumvention of technological measures applied to copyrighted works has on criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research;

(iv) the effect of circumvention of technological measures on the market for or value of copyrighted works; and

(v) such other factors as the Librarian considers appropriate.

(D) The Librarian shall publish any class of copyrighted works for which the Librarian has determined, pursuant to the rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), that noninfringing uses by persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be, adversely affected, and the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to such users with respect to such class of works for the ensuing 3-year period.

(E) Neither the exception under subparagraph (B) from the applicability of the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A), nor any determination made in a rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), may be used as a defense in any action to enforce any provision of this title other than this paragraph.

Now the paragraph that ACTUALLY applies to their lawsuit is found in:

Digital Millennium Copyright Act 17 U.S.C § 1201(a)(2)


(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that —

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

There is a very distinct difference in those two paragraphs. The first one is eluding to the fact that circumvention has been achieved....period the end. While the second (2) paragraph involves penalties for trafficking in or otherwise using and/or possessing a technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that has only limited usability and is primarily designed for copyright infringement.

So I ask you read those closely and than tell me which one more closely relates to what actually happened here. Given the fact that we know they CANNOT possibly prove theft beyond a reasonable doubt.

[BanHammer]

Ok, that's EBay for mdse sales. PayPal for money transfers is not exactly the same. They may not have the same policy. And who knows about ISP's internal policies. I still don't think PayPal or ISP's will give personal info or logs to a private company or person in a civil disagreement without a court order. They may be bad, but not that bad. With a court order they have to comply, no choice. Sort of like Wuf, no? When they got you by the b*lls.

any policy that eBay has set would most certainly apply to PayPal, since eBay owns PayPal.

[dishuser]

any policy that eBay has set would most certainly apply to PayPal, since eBay owns PayPal.

I already said that...lol

[BanHammer]

I already said that...lol

my bad.. lol

[hondoharry]

any policy that eBay has set would most certainly apply to PayPal, since eBay owns PayPal.

Not necessarily. Banks have much different policies than stores even if owned by the same parent. Bottom line is DN/Nagra can get end user personal info from PayPal, Ebay, ISP's, Wuf and any other entity with a court order which is no problem in these types of cases. From PayPal they got all the IP addresses the user has logged in from as shown in a posted PP report from another case.

[Grave Digger]

Everyone is missing the point , They have records of purchase and that's all they need under DCMA.

no, that is not true,

there is no law stating these codes are illegal to buy and sell,

[hondoharry]

no, that is not true,

there is no law stating these codes are illegal to buy and sell,

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

[sodusme]

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Read my post #277.

It depends what article or paragraph they are suring you under from the DMCA. They are IMO suing under the wrong paragraph. They cannot (I used the term beyond reasonable doubt earlier and that is wrong) prove piracy actually took place with a preponderance of the evidence. Now on the other hand they can prove that you trafficked in a device that has limited use.

This is why I don't understand why all the attorneys are saying "Pay up". This would be something a child could defend against with the proper know how.

[MarvinGardens]

This is why I don't understand why all the attorneys are saying "Pay up".


I have trouble understanding all this legal mumbo jumbo.


Res Ipsa Loquitur

[sodusme]

Res Ipsa Loquitur

OK and just what 'facts' do they have? They have some codes and those are NOT illegal to possess. If they were then show me the ruling on it. I know a couple of you guys are hell bent on proving that these codes 'speak for themselves' but yet can't show any concrete evidence as to how. I know you'll point to all those 'judgments' as evidence of it....but all those judgments are is people that were stupid and ignored the matter entirely and had a default judgment entered against them. Hardly a win for the scorebook on DN's part IMO. A pirates stupidity does not a genius make on DN's part.

Furthermore if these codes are so damn illegal to possess then why haven't they shut down NFPS's website? If they have proven that these are illegal (which some are you guys are beating in the ground)....than why in the hell is their website still up and running? That doesn't make good sense when you think about it does it? Unless like I said DN doesn't really want to end piracy because its lucrative for them. Look at all the sites that have been pulled for selling fake Gucci and Nike and NFL stuff....but you mean to tell me that DN/Nagra can't get a few rogue sites selling these SUPPOSEDLY illegal codes shut down?

GMAFB....

[alex70olds]

but you mean to tell me that DN/Nagra can't get a few rogue sites selling these SUPPOSEDLY illegal codes shut down?

GMAFB....

Those few rogue sites might be pretty good at hiding.These were not. JMHO


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273.replaylite.com
274.replaylite.net
275.replaylite.tv
276.rom10.com
277.rom102-cards.com
278.romexpressbuy.com
279.romforce.com
280.sataddicts.com
281.satbracket.com
282.satbusters.com
283.satcrawler.com
284.satellitefox.com
285.satellitesams.net
286.satellite-scams.com
287.satfileexchange.com
288.satfilexchange.com
289.sat-fta.com
290.satfx360.com
291.sathaze.com
292.sathelpers.com
293.satinvasion.com
294.satmart.org
295.satnewbies.org
296.satopiasalesusa.com
297.satpirate.com
298.satrats.com
299.sat-scams.com
300.satsurf.tv
301.sattechvc.com
302.sattoys.ca
303.scardz.com
304.selectsat.net
305.sfsinc.ca
306.sfs-infinite.net
307.silverbulletsupport.com
308.skyseeker.tv
309.smartsat.biz
310.software81.com
311.software81.info
312.sonicview-4000.com
313.sonicview-8000-hd.com
314.sonicviewdistributors.com
315.sonicviewexpress.com
316.sonicviewpros.com
317.sonicview-sv4000.com
318.spacestartv.com
319.spacetwister.info
320.spacetwister.org
321.spacetwister3m.com
322.spawndevices.com
323.sputnikdss.com
324.st-1000.com
325.sunpanel.biz
326.superfta.net
327.super-rom.com
328.tech-dss.com
329.tennmotorsport.com
330.terminator3m.net
331.testers-realm.co.uk
332.testers-realm.com
333.thecoolnavi.com
334.thecoolsat5000platinum.com
335.themostdss.com
336.theprivatedish.net
337.titaniumcardshop.com
338.torontosatellites.com
339.toys4dss.com
340.triple-dragon.us
341.tronicsguru.com
342.ultimate3m.com
343.ultradish.com
344.upsfta.com
345.usacoolsat.com
346.vegasdss.com
347.view-sat.com
348.viewsat800hd.com
349.viewsatdealer.com
350.viewsatdistributor.com
351.viewsatdistributors.com
352.viewsatdongle.org
353.viewsatlite.com
354.viewsatultra.org
355.viewsatus.com
356.viewsatvs2000.com
357.viewsatvs2000.net
358.wantabox.com
359.wholesalecoolsat.com
360.wholesalecoolsat.net
361.wholesalecoolsat.org
362.wholesalesviewsat.com
363.worldfta.com
364.worldofreceivers.com
365.worldsbestfta.com
366.xrica-x5.com
367.youvushop.com
368.007dss.com
369.007scripts.com
370.10304style.com
371.123satsupport.com
372.anton-piller.com
373.armmegacorp.com
374.armmegacorp.net
375.armmegacorp.org
376.armulator-sales.com
377.atmega256.com
378.channelcard.info
379.channelcard.org
380.coolsatclub.com
381.dish-equipment.com
382.dish-outlaws.com
383.dish-toys.com
384.dish3mfiles.com
385.dishnetdtv.com
386.dishoutlaws.com
387.dishvu.com
388.dss-wholesaledirect.com
389.electronics-elite.com
390.elite-coders-corner.tv
391.elite-technologys.org
392.filez.tv
393.freedomfight.us
394.fta-empire.com
395.ftapatriot.tv
396.funatthecircus.com
397.ilinkstb.com
398.infinitezhosting.com
399.killahbee.com
400.livekeyz.com
401.mytvclub.com
402.nagra2-software.com
403.nagra2elite.com
404.nagra2fix-elite.com
405.nagra2fixelite.com
406.nagra3.com
407.nagraeuro.com
408.nagraeuro.tv
409.nagraeurorom.com
410.newtvfix.com
411.olympic3m.com
412.ourfilez.com
413.picnicinthesun2008.com
414.privatedishsupport.com
415.privatetesterclub.com
416.privatetesterclub.net
417.realtvfix.com
418.sales-dynamics-firm.com
419.satnewsonline.com
420.seeuatthepark.com
421.skyisfree.net
422.systemprocedure.com
423.the-piratesden.com
424.tomico-ind.com
425.tomicoreviews.com
426.transat.tv
427.transatelectronics.com
428.tripsub.com
429.tvallopen.com
430.tvkeyznews.com
431.x3mfiles.com

[sodusme]

Nah man as much as the moles troll these sites gathering posts and what not....they have the URL's of NFPS's sites where they do business. Hell you can find 'em with a Google search. And I know the guys that run those sites and all the resellers well say "Well they are hosted offshore in a cave high on a mountain in Timbuktu". To which I will I say "That doesn't mean squat since they are using TLD's for their domain names". Doesn't matter where the i.p. is out of and it doesn't matter who provides the hosting as long as that TLD is seizeable and trust me it is. So two things are occurring (A) The codes are NOT illegal and there is not a damn thing they can do to the sites.....or.....(B) They don't wanna shut 'em down because its lucrative and they make millions on these default judgments.

I'm open to either option as a viable answer.

[jeldf]

N*P* is a dot com......they could take that down easily.

[alex70olds]

we are talking domain here? They could not sieze server, correct? The files them selves are enough by themselves. If the seize domain, could they not just use IP, as others have done?

[sodusme]

we are talking domain here? They could not sieze server, correct? The files them selves are enough by themselves. If the seize domain, could they not just use IP, as others have done?

Well whatever that server i.p. equates to domain wise opens it up to a seizure. I don't know the i.p.s that they operate on but if I remember correctly they were running on TLD's that could be seized.

Which brings up a good discussion....again if these code words are sooooooooooo illegal....then why do you allow a company to transmit them to facilitate piracy? That in itself doesn't make sense? If 'possession' of a code is illegal....then the transmission of them through the internet has to be illegal?

[alex70olds]

Well whatever that server i.p. equates to domain wise opens it up to a seizure. I don't know the i.p.s that they operate on but if I remember correctly they were running on TLD's that could be seized.

Which brings up a good discussion....again if these code words are sooooooooooo illegal....then why do you allow a company to transmit them to facilitate piracy? That in itself doesn't make sense? If 'possession' of a code is illegal....then the transmission of them through the internet has to be illegal?

I thought the codes were emailed? The site's host files (forums) which have been enough in the past. The sites that sell? Yeah, kind of interesting.

[sodusme]

I thought the codes were emailed? The site's host files (forums) which have been enough in the past. The sites that sell? Yeah, kind of interesting.

No when I said 'codes'....I meant 'code words' that decrypt the signal. If those have been ruled on and I believe they have in a court of law and are illegal to possess/own/operate or whatever the hell the ruling was....than certainly it is illegal to send those through the internet from a 'server'. And by server I mean the i.p.'s that you connect to for NFPS they are resolved to a domain of some kind. Last I knew it was like nfps1.xxxx.com or .tv or whatever it was. I mean the control codes are sent through the internet right? Or has the control word already done its job by the time it reaches an end users receiver? It really doesn't matter anyways 'cause at some point those control words would have to be traveling by way of the internet....even if it was just to the 'server' that NFPS is running....so again we are back to the domain seizure as a venue to end this? And yet it doesn't occur?

Then you also have the sites that sell the 'subscription' codes?

So again I ask you what is the reasoning for not cutting the head off the dragon? Profit to the bottom line? That is all I can think of. These guys are actually looking more like fools for the simple fact that they don't end this once and for all. And by 'these guys' I mean DN/Nagra and their stooge attorneys.

[alex70olds]

No when I said 'codes'....I meant 'code words' that decrypt the signal. If those have been ruled on and I believe they have in a court of law and are illegal to possess/own/operate or whatever the hell the ruling was....than certainly it is illegal to send those through the internet from a 'server'. And by server I mean the i.p.'s that you connect to for NFPS they are resolved to a domain of some kind. Last I knew it was like nfps1.xxxx.com or .tv or whatever it was. I mean the control codes are sent through the internet right? Or has the control word already done its job by the time it reaches an end users receiver? It really doesn't matter anyways 'cause at some point those control words would have to be traveling by way of the internet....even if it was just to the 'server' that NFPS is running....so again we are back to the domain seizure as a venue to end this? And yet it doesn't occur?

Then you also have the sites that sell the 'subscription' codes?

So again I ask you what is the reasoning for not cutting the head off the dragon? Profit to the bottom line? That is all I can think of. These guys are actually looking more like fools for the simple fact that they don't end this once and for all. And by 'these guys' I mean DN/Nagra and their stooge attorneys.

Ah, I was refering to the subscription codes. sorry bro, I should know better than try to think about this crap when I am working. lol

[sodusme]

Ah, I was refering to the subscription codes. sorry bro, I should know better than try to think about this crap when I am working. lol


1.nfpsserver.tv

Classic example there and I think there are a dozen domains hosted within a given block of i.p.'s. All the domains are hosted with synhost.net with a Lithuanian i.p. assigned to them....which I know, I know the knuckleheads of NFPS think are untouchable. But its hosted on a TLD of .TV....which is VERY much seizeable. So again if your DN/Nagra....and you know that your signal is being pirated and furthermore you know its being pirated by way of these domains....than why in the hell do you leave these domain's up? And yes they do know these domains exist....they have to there is no way they couldn't. I'm telling you it makes no sense at all.

Now I'm not advocating that they pull these domains so don't read that into it. I'm just noticing the irony of hey here is a domain that you can prove without a shadow of a damn doubt that is leading to the piracy of your signal and you leave it up?!?! But yet they try and haul the @sses of some regular joe's into court and sue them for pirating the signal based on some damn 'codes' being exchanged through Paypal?

Am I the only one that this doesn't make a lick of sense to? I hope not 'cause if I am than I need to get some other forums to hang out on. ;)

[kboom]

True the biggest bang for the buck is go after the end user. Why chase the domain around the globe.

[Hannibalector]

1.nfpsserver.tv

Classic example there and I think there are a dozen domains hosted within a given block of i.p.'s. All the domains are hosted with synhost.net with a Lithuanian i.p. assigned to them....which I know, I know the knuckleheads of NFPS think are untouchable. But its hosted on a TLD of .TV....which is VERY much seizeable. So again if your DN/Nagra....and you know that your signal is being pirated and furthermore you know its being pirated by way of these domains....than why in the hell do you leave these domain's up? And yes they do know these domains exist....they have to there is no way they couldn't. I'm telling you it makes no sense at all.

Now I'm not advocating that they pull these domains so don't read that into it. I'm just noticing the irony of hey here is a domain that you can prove without a shadow of a damn doubt that is leading to the piracy of your signal and you leave it up?!?! But yet they try and haul the @sses of some regular joe's into court and sue them for pirating the signal based on some damn 'codes' being exchanged through Paypal?

Am I the only one that this doesn't make a lick of sense to? I hope not 'cause if I am than I need to get some other forums to hang out on. ;)

I said it way back Sod, they (dn attorneys) are profit clearing houses set up to profit for the provider, they are the sleeziest sob's on the planet and the reason I call them ambulance chasers, just as they nagra have the ability to swap out there conditional access cards and make IKS a thing of the past and choose not to is the same rational for not taking out the servers and to make money off it rather then spend money to secure there signal

[Grave Digger]

taking end users to court serves two purposes,

1 - makes dn/nagra alot of fast and easy money
2 - judgements against end users sends fear through the entire FTA community

i am only speculating when i say this, but i am fairly certain that these court cases have turned ALOT of people away from continuing to use IKS....and no new IKS "donations" means the IKS servers close up shop

[sodusme]

I said it way back Sod, they (dn attorneys) are profit clearing houses set up to profit for the provider, they are the sleeziest sob's on the planet and the reason I call them ambulance chasers, just as they nagra have the ability to swap out there conditional access cards and make IKS a thing of the past and choose not to is the same rational for not taking out the servers and to make money off it rather then spend money to secure there signal


taking end users to court serves two purposes,

1 - makes dn/nagra alot of fast and easy money
2 - judgements against end users sends fear through the entire FTA community

i am only speculating when i say this, but i am fairly certain that these court cases have turned ALOT of people away from continuing to use IKS....and no new IKS "donations" means the IKS servers close up shop

I think you both nailed it on the head gentlemen.

[jeldf]

I think you both nailed it on the head gentlemen.

So say you are right. DN/Nag's 'solution' to piracy is to make a profit and hope it ends. Would this not make a credible defense? Sure one would get fried for admitting theft but would that not set a precedent as to their intent? Instead of fixing the problem easily, you'd rather make money from it in the process? I suppose DN Shareholders are all for it!

[hondoharry]

I'm not sure about the 'fast and easy money' part for DN/Nagra. It's a lot of effort (money) to gather evidence for the letters and a trial and who knows how many actually pay all their judgements in the end. At that law firm's rate it all probably goes to the lawyers whether paying the extortion or going to trial.

The 2nd part about fear in the community, for sure.

[kboom]

Let's take it to Judge Judy!!!!!

[sodusme]

So say you are right. DN/Nag's 'solution' to piracy is to make a profit and hope it ends. Would this not make a credible defense? Sure one would get fried for admitting theft but would that not set a precedent as to their intent? Instead of fixing the problem easily, you'd rather make money from it in the process? I suppose DN Shareholders are all for it!

You know I was thinking that earlier....its almost like a case of 'complicity'. They are being complicit in the theft of their signal by not taking more drastic measure to A) secure it B) aggressively close down IKS servers.

I don't think the shareholders have any idea. Maybe a blog should be started up alerting them to it? Kind of like the chasebanksucks website. Get the word out there to the public and to their share holders that instead of taking measures to shut down IKS operations they would rather profit from the wrong doing and let it continue. I hope the shareholders are being compensated dividend wise for this. Although its doubtful they are. If they shut down IKS entirely they might have more 'profits' from subs (which equates to more dividends for the shareholders) but instead they'd rather right off the theft of programming and the business of defending against it as a 'loss' and in the mean time Charlie screws his shareholders.

Nice scam he has running there.


http://biz.yahoo.com/e/120808/dish10-q.html


While economic factors have impacted the entire pay-TV industry, our relative performance has also been driven by issues specific to DISH. In the past, our subscriber growth has been adversely affected by signal theft and other forms of fraud and by operational inefficiencies at DISH.

Hmm has it really now Charlie? The way I see it though it doesn't have to be if you get your head out of your @ss and start taking care of your shareholders more.

[jeldf]

You know I was thinking that earlier....its almost like a case of 'complicity'. They are being complicit in the theft of their signal by not taking more drastic measure to A) secure it B) aggressively close down IKS servers.

What if Joe average subscriber knew that the guy next door was getting the same TV for $50/year instead of $50/month because DN failed to take care of A and B? If one got a Demand Letter, could one not plead 'yes, but they let me'?

[hondoharry]

Isn't this horse dead yet?

[rainman2]

With over 300 replies it's good to know what is happening, especially when so many members are receiving letters. Who knows maybe somebody will come up with a definite answer. Or probably went through the whole process and let people know.

[Grave Digger]

They are being complicit in the theft of their signal by not taking more drastic measure to A) secure it B) aggressively close down IKS servers.



but they have closed down many IKS servers already,

it seems like they are just leaving the "big two" alone,

so its one of two things....

1 - they want these two servers to continue operating

or

2 - they can not (for whatever reason) close them down

my guess is number two, but thats just my jacka$$ opinion

[sodusme]

but they have closed down many IKS servers already,

it seems like they are just leaving the "big two" alone,

so its one of two things....

1 - they want these two servers to continue operating

or

2 - they can not (for whatever reason) close them down

my guess is number two, but thats just my jacka$$ opinion

I think its more #1 and I'll tell you why I think it couldn't be #2:

Any site that registers a domain name inadvertently answers to Verisign. Well I should rephrase that any site that operates on a TLD (Top Level Domain) which includes .COM, .TV, .NET, .US, and some others that I can't remember right off the top of my head. Now having registered that site with one of those TLD's that means that any time your site is subject to being pulled down if you are engaging in illegal or otherwise questionable material on that domain. The reason is Verisign has a vested interest in the nameservers to perform the look up on these domains and ultimately convert them from a domain name to an i.p. and I think they may in fact operate some of the trunk lines that crisscross America as well.

So with all that said these sites can be pulled down at any time, for any reason. Now could they simply start them back up? Of course they could but it appears that DN/Nagra is not even trying this approach. Instead they are content on telling their shareholders that profits are going down because of signal theft when in actuality there is know legitimate way to link signal theft with lost profits (as I've said just because someone stole something from you doesn't mean they would have purchased it from you in the first place, therefore you never had a profit from it in the FIRST place)....unless of course you're spending the profits on ambulance chasing and sending out thousands upon thousands of demand letters while your attorney's firm is getting fat and rich.

I wonder if the shareholders get to share in this gained revenue from the demand letters? I would hope so....

[Grave Digger]

So with all that said these sites can be pulled down at any time, for any reason.

well, not for "any reason"

only if they were engaging in illegal activities....so maybe DN is having a hard time proving that

[sodusme]

well, not for "any reason"

only if they were engaging in illegal activities....so maybe DN is having a hard time proving that

Well there have been a couple sites pulled down erroneously that is why I say for "any reason". Which brings up the question if its supposedly illegal to buy these subscription codes....than why how in the hell is it not illegal to run a site where those codes gain you entry to view programming? I think the end user is the easy way out and a cash cow IMO and that is why they will not/do not bother with the direct site where the 'piracy' is originating from. Although it shouldn't be that hard to issue injunctions against the guys registering these domains. Someone is paying server fees to keep these domains up and running. Sure you can hide that registrar info. with an anonymous registrar system but if push comes to shove they will give you up if threatened with legal action. I doubt they are sending cash through the mail to keep these servers up so somewhere there is a money trail of who is paying these server fees. Unless of course the guys are from outside the U.S. than that changes things a bit.

[nobody]

Isn't this horse dead yet?

Still fun to read ;D ;D ;D

[kyzursozay]

yeah hondoharry still only been 10 days since Hannibalector responded to monsieur pierre .....wheels of justice turn slowly............lol

[norm155]

pay the money and be done with it..1 they will not give you a break on the $3500 i tryed every way i could come up with..2 i really doubt it can be beat in court at least from what the lawyers i talked to told be it's cheaper to pay it..how many lawyers would turn money away and be upfront honest..work out a payment plan with dish and make a decision either stop with IKS or risk getting cought AGAIN !!!!!

[sodusme]

pay the money and be done with it..1 they will not give you a break on the $3500 i tryed every way i could come up with..2 i really doubt it can be beat in court at least from what the lawyers i talked to told be it's cheaper to pay it..how many lawyers would turn money away and be upfront honest..work out a payment plan with dish and make a decision either stop with IKS or risk getting cought AGAIN !!!!!

Something doesn't seem right about your post? You actually said it yourself "How many attorneys would turn away money". I don't know what attorneys you guys are calling but I NEVER met an honest defense attorney....never. And I've dealt with them on a few occasions.

Its a simple defense: Sirs your demand letter and resulting lawsuit are hinging on a DMCA clause (17 U.S.C § 1201(a)(1) that cannot be proven for the following reasons: You do not have any evidence that there was any circumvention of a copyright protected system.

End of defense. Its not rocket science. You have to sue under the right clause of whatever law you are saying was broken. You can't simply waltz into court and say "Your honor I think this is the right clause, paragraph and sub-paragraph". It doesn't work that way.

So my best advice is to get some new attorneys!!! Someone that knows what the hell they are doing and what the hell they are talking about.

[norm155]

Something doesn't seem right about your post? You actually said it yourself "How many attorneys would turn away money". I don't know what attorneys you guys are calling but I NEVER met an honest defense attorney....never. And I've dealt with them on a few occasions.

Its a simple defense: Sirs your demand letter and resulting lawsuit are hinging on a DMCA clause (17 U.S.C § 1201(a)(1) that cannot be proven for the following reasons: You do not have any evidence that there was any circumvention of a copyright protected system.

End of defense. Its not rocket science. You have to sue under the right clause of whatever law you are saying was broken. You can't simply waltz into court and say "Your honor I think this is the right clause, paragraph and sub-paragraph". It doesn't work that way.

So my best advice is to get some new attorneys!!! Someone that knows what the hell they are doing and what the hell they are talking about.

you make it sound so easy..maybe you should get a letter and see how you do..The lawyers i know around here where honest with me ..they said if there was a case they would go with it... but i guess you the expert lawyer on here !!!!

[sodusme]

you make it sound so easy..maybe you should get a letter and see how you do..The lawyers i know around here where honest with me ..they said if there was a case they would go with it... but i guess you the expert lawyer on here !!!!

What do you live in a cave or something? How many attorneys did you call? I can guarantee if I did get a letter I could get an attorney to fight this and if I couldn't you bet your @ss they'd see my smilin' face show up in court.

The reason I'm questioning this is attorneys and 'honest' aren't usually used in the same sentence. Its been my experience that attorneys will sell you the sun, the moon and the stars and deliver none of it. So even if there was NOT a case why would an attorney not take it? He's got your money what does he care if he loses the case?

This is why I'm saying your post makes no sense. Sounds like you're more the expert towel thrower and so are the attorneys you called.

[kboom]

Well I guess to prove your point you could call up one your so called attorneys and show him a copy of the letter and then give us the happy answer. BS back and forth does nothing for anybody. It's all in your court......

[hondoharry]

Its a simple defense: Sirs your demand letter and resulting lawsuit are hinging on a DMCA clause (17 U.S.C § 1201(a)(1) that cannot be proven for the following reasons: You do not have any evidence that there was any circumvention of a copyright protected system.

The demand letter has no legal standing in court. It's simply an offer to settle out of court. They can mention one clause in the letter and bring up any other ones and any other evidence in trial.

[sodusme]

Well I guess to prove your point you could call up one your so called attorneys and show him a copy of the letter and then give us the happy answer. BS back and forth does nothing for anybody. It's all in your court......

Now what good would that possibly do? Think about it....attorneys are licensed to practice in certain states only. So unless you wanna move your happy @ss to Michigan (or Indiana as a lot of them in the area do litigation in Indiana)....I guess you're screwed.

All you guys spouting off with "They'll never accept that", "That will never work", "You should just pay it and toe the line" probably didn't even get letters. Fear mongering goes a long way on these boards.


The demand letter has no legal standing in court. It's simply an offer to settle out of court. They can mention one clause in the letter and bring up any other ones and any other evidence in trial.

So than you are paying this money under false pretenses? You are paying it with respect to litigation being sought under a certain DMCA clause and as I said its a DMCA clause that CANNOT be proven. I don't have the time nor the energy to pour over these actual court cases but I would bet that they are suing under this exact DMCA clause. Look it up if you have the time. I'm curious.

In fact n/m I'll do it....

[sodusme]

Yup just as I thought....look up "COUNT 1" of Kailas Magi's documents.


Circumventing an Access Control Measure in Violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1) (that's (a)(1) ONLY that they are suing under.

28. Plaintiffs repeat and reallege the allegations in paragraphs 1-27.
29. Defendant circumvented the DISH Network security system in violation of 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1) by the acts set forth above, including obtaining NagraStar’s control words from the IKS server and using the control words to view DISH Network’s satellite transmissions of television programming.
30. The DISH Network security system is a technological measure that effectively controls access to, copying, and distribution of copyrighted works. Defendant’s actions that constitute violations of 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1) were performed without permission, consent, or authorization of DISH Network or any owner of copyrighted programming broadcast on the DISH Network platform.
31. Defendant violated 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1) willfully and for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial gain.
32. Defendant knew or should have known his actions were illegal and prohibited. Such violations have and will continue to cause damage to Plaintiffs in an amount to be proven at trial. Unless restrained and enjoined by the Court, Defendant will continue to violate 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1).

No where in these allegations are they referencing ANY other clause of 17 U.S.C § 1201 EXCEPT (a)(1)


http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap12.html#1201

Now we know from reading on the governments copyright site that that clause says the following:


(1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

(C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine —

(i) the availability for use of copyrighted works;

(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival, preservation, and educational purposes;

(iii) the impact that the prohibition on the circumvention of technological measures applied to copyrighted works has on criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research;

(iv) the effect of circumvention of technological measures on the market for or value of copyrighted works; and

(v) such other factors as the Librarian considers appropriate.

(D) The Librarian shall publish any class of copyrighted works for which the Librarian has determined, pursuant to the rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), that noninfringing uses by persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be, adversely affected, and the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to such users with respect to such class of works for the ensuing 3-year period.

(E) Neither the exception under subparagraph (B) from the applicability of the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A), nor any determination made in a rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), may be used as a defense in any action to enforce any provision of this title other than this paragraph.

Furthermore we know the clause that COULD actually be proven is the following:


(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that —

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

[kboom]

Ok that is fine but where does it state that his dismissal is b/c of this? By the way I paid mine. It was the cheapest way to go. But curious to see how others have worked out. As of yet haven't seen any wins that have stated your thoughts. Have there actually been any wins?

[sodusme]

Ok that is fine but where does it state that his dismissal is b/c of this? By the way I paid mine. It was the cheapest way to go. But curious to see how others have worked out. As of yet haven't seen any wins that have stated your thoughts. Have there actually been any wins?

It doesn't....

But I was trying to remember didn't Alex (or someone else can't remember) post something about a case being dismissed or thrown out because of the 'control words being un-encrypted' allegation and that was grounds for dismissal or something? Because of the fact that the control words were already un-encrypted before they reached the defendants receiver? I think I'm remembering this correctly but maybe not.

I can't remember all the particulars but it seems to me I read something about that?

[alex70olds]

Ok that is fine but where does it state that his dismissal is b/c of this? By the way I paid mine. It was the cheapest way to go. But curious to see how others have worked out. As of yet haven't seen any wins that have stated your thoughts. Have there actually been any wins?

No

You can not, and will not win, unless you are truely a case of mistaken identity.

Their pockets are too deep. They will subponea your ISP if they have too. This is Civil, and not Criminal. Sorry, at one time I thought their would be better news out of the Magi case.

[alex70olds]

It doesn't....

But I was trying to remember didn't Alex (or someone else can't remember) post something about a case being dismissed or thrown out because of the 'control words being un-encrypted' allegation and that was grounds for dismissal or something? Because of the fact that the control words were already un-encrypted before they reached the defendants receiver? I think I'm remembering this correctly but maybe not.

I can't remember all the particulars but it seems to me I read something about that?

That was the attorney HL sent the email to.

[sodusme]

That was the attorney HL sent the email to.

OK couldn't remember it....

I still say they can't possibly prove that you circumvented anything. They would need ISP logs for that. But not every ISP keeps logs forever. Its my understanding that they are purged after some time frame.

In fact here is a blog with retention periods for major ISP's in America (and a couple Canadian ones). WOW Verizon....18 months? Damn....LOL


http://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-address-logs-120629/

Now can they prove that you 'trafficked' in an item that has limited use? Yes they most certainly can. But that is not what they are alleging here. You can't go into court alleging one thing and than when that is shot down switch gears and say "Well your honor we would also like to allege the following"....LOL

I say the best defense is to know ALL the ins and outs of how IKS actually works because its apparent they do not or they would have it shut down by now. ;)

[1boxman]

Ok that is fine but where does it state that his dismissal is b/c of this? By the way I paid mine. It was the cheapest way to go. But curious to see how others have worked out. As of yet haven't seen any wins that have stated your thoughts. Have there actually been any wins?

I do not think you can win ..other than try and protect yourself for the future .Like said it is civil court .

Other scenario ..if they sent out a second letter ..Say if someone had multi codes .
This would be the worse . I see no reason why they could not do this .

[alex70olds]

OK couldn't remember it....

I still say they can't possibly prove that you circumvented anything. They would need ISP logs for that. But not every ISP keeps logs forever. Its my understanding that they are purged after some time frame.

In fact here is a blog with retention periods for major ISP's in America (and a couple Canadian ones). WOW Verizon....18 months? Damn....LOL


http://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-address-logs-120629/

Now can they prove that you 'trafficked' in an item that has limited use? Yes they most certainly can. But that is not what they are alleging here. You can't go into court alleging one thing and than when that is shot down switch gears and say "Well your honor we would also like to allege the following"....LOL
I say the best defense is to know ALL the ins and outs of how IKS actually works because its apparent they do not or they would have it shut down by now. ;)

They certainly can file an amended complaint at any time they wish.

Also, they have started going after those that have the "seeder" accounts. I suspect that is one of the reasons for limited channels.

[sodusme]

They certainly can file an amended complaint at any time they wish.

Also, they have started going after those that have the "seeder" accounts. I suspect that is one of the reasons for limited channels.

Oh I was certain there were ways to either 'amend' or refile another suit entirely....

I just was saying that you have to stick to the 'allegations' at hand when in court. You can't jump all over the board and start making accusations that have not been documented in the lawsuit. No judge (or defense attorney for that matter) will put up with that.

[alex70olds]

Oh I was certain there were ways to either 'amend' or refile another suit entirely....

I just was saying that you have to stick to the 'allegations' at hand when in court. You can't jump all over the board and start making accusations that have not been documented in the lawsuit. No judge (or defense attorney for that matter) will put up with that.

Procedure for filing an amended complaint.


GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT AMENDED COMPLAINTS
A. Rule 15 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure governs the filing of amended and supplemental pleadings.
According to Rule 15(a):
A party may amend the party’s pleading once as a matter of course at any time before
a responsive pleading is served or, it the pleading is one to which no responsive
pleading is permitted and the action has not been placed upon the trial calendar, the
party may so amend it at any time within 20 days after it is served. Otherwise a party
may amend the party’s pleading only by leave of court or by written consent of the
adverse party; and leave shall be freely given when justice so requires. A party shall
plead in response to an amended pleading within the time remaining for response to
the original pleading or within 10 days after service of the amended pleading,
whichever period may be longer, unless the court otherwise orders.
Please note that an amended complaint completely replaces your original complaint and you therefore
must include all of the necessary allegations in the amended complaint.

[sodusme]

Procedure for filing an amended complaint.

Justice?!?! They have the audacity to call this justice?

GMAB!!!!

[alex70olds]

Justice?!?! They have the audacity to call this justice?

GMAB!!!!

So many things in Civil court are like this. I never said it was right.

[norm155]

What do you live in a cave or something? How many attorneys did you call? I can guarantee if I did get a letter I could get an attorney to fight this and if I couldn't you bet your @ss they'd see my smilin' face show up in court.

The reason I'm questioning this is attorneys and 'honest' aren't usually used in the same sentence. Its been my experience that attorneys will sell you the sun, the moon and the stars and deliver none of it. So even if there was NOT a case why would an attorney not take it? He's got your money what does he care if he loses the case?

This is why I'm saying your post makes no sense. Sounds like you're more the expert towel thrower and so are the attorneys you called.

I guess you have more money to fight this than i do..Maybe i could find a lawyer to take this on but at what price and if we lose well i am out more money...turn your self in and prove me wrong that this can be beaten..or better yet give me the money for a lawyer you know that can beat this ..sounds like a great deal to me seeing you have this all figured out!!!!

[dragon51]

i got certified mail from: dish network L.L.C et al. the illegal signal theft devieces and priate iks servers accessible via the internet. pay the sum of $3.500 to dish network for your past wrongful counduct..so ..i have to call to make payment ...any one becarefull..this from last year code . i was purchase..from ..wolfman...!:bawl::bawl::noidea::noidea::noidea:

[sodusme]

I guess you have more money to fight this than i do..Maybe i could find a lawyer to take this on but at what price and if we lose well i am out more money...turn your self in and prove me wrong that this can be beaten..or better yet give me the money for a lawyer you know that can beat this ..sounds like a great deal to me seeing you have this all figured out!!!!

No I never said I had the money....

I think that is the real issue and frankly its none of my business but if you can't afford an attorney than don't post that they are turning you down and won't take the case. That simply misleads people. If its a money issue than be honest and say "Hey I didn't have the money for an attorney". When I said "I could get an attorney to fight this" that meant that I could find one 'willing' to litigate this....not necessarily that I could afford one. And like I said if you I couldn't afford one I'd go down fighting and they'd see my @ss sitting in that court room across from them and I'd bumble, stumble and trip through the court proceedings. After all if you can't afford an attorney what the hell do you have to lose?

[kinhdo]

same here, I just received a certified mail too.

[alex70olds]

No I never said I had the money....

I think that is the real issue and frankly its none of my business but if you can't afford an attorney than don't post that they are turning you down and won't take the case. That simply misleads people. If its a money issue than be honest and say "Hey I didn't have the money for an attorney". When I said "I could get an attorney to fight this" that meant that I could find one 'willing' to litigate this....not necessarily that I could afford one. And like I said if you I couldn't afford one I'd go down fighting and they'd see my @ss sitting in that court room across from them and I'd bumble, stumble and trip through the court proceedings. After all if you can't afford an attorney what the hell do you have to lose?

Then you risk losing more, even doing a little time for contempt. Sorry bro, this is not a fair and equitable system. :(

[sodusme]

Nah you can represent yourself without contempt charges. When I said bumble, stumble, and trip through that meant that obviously I wouldn't be familiar with the court proceedings like an attorney...

[alex70olds]

lol kk, I took it as you might try what Nguyen did. He even had press. But in the end, he paid big time. As an enduser Elvis Perry tried the represent yourself, but he backed himself in a corner and...

[Anubis]

i got certified mail from: dish network L.L.C et al. the illegal signal theft devieces and priate iks servers accessible via the internet. pay the sum of $3.500 to dish network for your past wrongful counduct..so ..i have to call to make payment ...any one becarefull..this from last year code . i was purchase..from ..wolfman...!:bawl::bawl::noidea::noidea::noidea:


same here, I just received a certified mail too.

Just moved these here ..(thanks alex).
Looks like the letters are still going out.

[norm155]

No I never said I had the money....

I think that is the real issue and frankly its none of my business but if you can't afford an attorney than don't post that they are turning you down and won't take the case. That simply misleads people. If its a money issue than be honest and say "Hey I didn't have the money for an attorney". When I said "I could get an attorney to fight this" that meant that I could find one 'willing' to litigate this....not necessarily that I could afford one. And like I said if you I couldn't afford one I'd go down fighting and they'd see my @ss sitting in that court room across from them and I'd bumble, stumble and trip through the court proceedings. After all if you can't afford an attorney what the hell do you have to lose?

where did i say i couldn't afford a lawyer ??? I can afford a lawyer with no problem and the ones i talked to don't come cheap..they are lawyers of friends that have used them for other civil court problems and have an outstanding record. My job i can not have any type of judgements against me so i will pay the 3g.unlike you who seems to have alot of talk for someone that don't have a letter

[kboom]

Like I said before folks everyone's situation is different. No point in getting in a brew ha ha over this conversation. I'm like norm and don't want anything against me as it would not look good on the job front. But Sod you say a lot of what you would do and that may sway some other person to do it based on what you say and have no facts to prove your case. I asked before if you know a lawyer that you can ask and have him verify all of what you say. You seem to ignore this request. You can get a copy of the letter and ask the lawyer most have no 1st call fees. Let's back up what you preach. No hard feelings just would like to see some facts. Like I said I payed mine just want to see if anyone actually wins??

[kboom]

This is a c/p from another source. Last paragraph is the meat of the subject in my opinion.

Is this comparable to the dn extortion letters?

C/P
EHG

found this in one of the sections of dslreports and thought it might be germane to the recent discussions about DN's letters

SEEMS THAT PROFITING BY USING SCARE TACTICS IS NOT LIMITED TO DN AND THEIR TEXAS LAWFIRM, IN THIS CASE THE ISP'S DECIDED TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE EXTORTING AND BULLYING THEIR CUSTOMERS.

HOWEVER IN THIS CASE IT SEEMS SINCE IT IS ABOUT PORN THEY ARE WILLING TO ATTEMPT TO STOP THESE COPYRIGHT TROLLS I WONDER HOW THEY WILL VIEW dn IS THAT NOT WHAT DN IS ATTEMPTING TO DO EXTORT MONEY BY BULLYING THOSE THAT THEY "THINK" COULD HAVE RECEIVED THEIR CONTENT WITHOUT A SUB? SUEING A COPYRIGHT TROL IS ONE THING BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE "BIG BOYS CLUB" WHILE DN CERTAINLY IS - seems like if they were to give up info to dn while sueing this other company are taking opposite viewpoints on the same situation.

================================================== =====

Porn Copyright Troll Sues AT&T, Comcast Claims ISPs are Responsible for Hacked Porn Passwords by Karl Bode Monday 13-Aug-2012


AT&T and Comcast are being sued for "profiting off of porn piracy." Earlier this year noted that Comcast had joined Verizon in fighting back against copyright trolls they claim are extorting and bullying their customers -- provided said trolls are focused on areas of media neither company cares much about (like porn and e-books). Most of these copyright trolls fire off pre-settlement letters and file suit against anonymous file traders en masse -- in the hopes of scaring users into paying cash without a trial.

Last week Lightspeed Media and their representatives at Prenda Law sued both AT&T and Comcast for fighting against their mass-user subpoena efforts. Lightspeed Media has been shaking down BitTorrent users, but has also been trying to use the traditional copyright-troll tactic of suing a slew of users for sharing passwords to one of their hacked websites. According to Prenda law, both AT&T and Comcast are engaged in "negligence, computer fraud and abuse" and "civil conspiracy" for not handing over the names of these users. Says the firm:
"The ISPs chose to interpose themselves in this litigation, interfere with the Court's Orders, evade subpoenas, and prevent and obstruct Plaintiff from learning the identity of those ISP subscribers hacking into and stealing from its website," Lightspeed writes. AT&T and Comcast has also failed to take "any actions to prevent their subscribers from committing criminal and tortious acts against Plaintiff even after being on actual notice of the criminal and tortious activity."

Lightspeed says that the ISP defendants were "unjustly enriched because, while engaging in a dilatory legal strategy designed solely to prevent Plaintiff from learning the identities of their subscribers, they continued to collect subscriber fees from subscribers who did, and continued to, hack into and steal from Plaintiff's website."




Things Falling Apart For Porn Copyright Troll Prenda

Judge Starts to Notice Strange Odor Emanating From Firm
by Karl Bode Wednesday 13-Mar-2013

Porn copyright troll Prenda Law has apparently run afoul of one very tough Judge. We've previously noted how Prenda has been trying to scare broadband users into settling with the company en masse after they've been tracked downloading copyrighted porn films. Like other copyright trolling efforts of this kind, Prenda relies on often unreliable IP address evidence as hard proof, and the goal is to simply generate profits by scaring users into settling.

Prenda however takes things to an entirely other level when it comes to legal system abuse -- enough that this week the firm faced inquiry by United States District Judge Otis Wright in Los Angeles. Popehat has a fairly fantastic break down of specifically why this occurred, citing allegations of everything from shell companies to identity theft. Fast forward to this week, when most Prenda reps couldn't be bothered to attend the inquiry. Popehat's Ken White notes that the hearing proceeded anyway, with U.S. District Court Judge Otis Wright not taking any guff from the porn copyright troll: Judge Wright took the bench, grim and stentorian and bow-tied, and immediately commenced to take absolutely no **** from anybody. "I spent the whole weekend reading a deposition," he said, referring to the astounding deposition of Prenda principal Paul Hansmeier. "It is perhaps the most informative thing I have read in this affair so far." There was a collective intake of breath from the onlookers, who guessed that was not a good thing for Prenda Law. They were right. "There was so much obstruction in this deposition that it's obvious that someone has an awful lot to hide," Judge Wright commented later.

CONTINUE

I think that they know that but they are more then willing to file the lawsuits as they have shown in the past - The problem is until these lawsuits are answered by competent legal representatives who have expertise in this area of the law - dn WILL continue to get judgements against the very few who actually answer the lawsuit and fight it WITH A COUPLE OF EXCEPTIONS AND BE VERY INTERESTING TO FIND THE CAUSE FOR THE DISMISALS IN THOSE CASES

THE BIG PROBLEM IS DN KNOWS THAT MOST OF THE RECEIPIENTS OF THESE LETTERS CANNOT AFFORD TO HIRE ADEQUATE LEGAL REPRESENTATION AND FIGHT THE LAWSUIT SO THEY WIN BY DEFAULT.

EVEN IF THE ISP'S DO NOT PROVIDE LOGGING INFO MOST CANNOT HIRE AN ATTORNEY AND FIGHT THE CASE ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE COULD BE SOME DISTANCE BETWEEN WHERE THEY LIVE AND THE COURT WHERE THE CASE WILL BE HEARD.

HOWEVER IF DN GOES FOR THIS LOGGING INFO AND THE ISP'S OR AN ISP RESISTS AND GOES TO COURT A PRECEDENT COULD BE SET AND THE PROBLEM COULD GO AWAY IF THE ISP RESISTS THE EFFORT TO "EXTORT AND BULLY" THEIR CUSTOMERS IS SUCCESSFUL.

THEY HAVE IN THE CASE I C/P ABOVE BUT AS I SAID DN IS PART OF THE "CLUB" AND THE COMPANY INVOLVED ABOVE IS NOT - HOWEVER THE BIG BOYS ARE CONSTANTLY SUEING EACH OTHER OVER A VARIETY OF MATTERS SO ACTION ON THE PART OF THE IP'S IS NOT ALTOGETHER IMPOSSIBLE IF DN DOES GO AFTER THEIR CUSTOMERS HISTORY.

I FOUND THE ABOVE WHILE ATTEMPTING TO SEE WHAT INFO I COULD OBTAIN ON IP LOGGING AND WHETHER IT IS UNIVERSAL WITH THE IP'S OR NOT AND ANY OTHER INFO ON THAT - I THINK IT IS THE KEY TO THE CASE AND WITHOUT PROOF OF CONNECTION TO THE SERVERS I DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE A CASE!

BUT AS I SAID ABOVE EVEN IF THEY DON'T THEY WILL FILE UNTIL THEY ARE BEATEN DOWN IN COURT AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY AN AMBULANCE CHASER.

[alex70olds]

What case did D1sh filed that is dependent almost solely on an IP? Most of these demand cases on based on different evidence. It seems that EHG is reaching as always. Apples and oranges. Add IP's to the other information, like what was in your demand letter, case over.

[sodusme]

where did i say i couldn't afford a lawyer ??? I can afford a lawyer with no problem and the ones i talked to don't come cheap..they are lawyers of friends that have used them for other civil court problems and have an outstanding record. My job i can not have any type of judgements against me so i will pay the 3g.unlike you who seems to have alot of talk for someone that don't have a letter

OK Mr. Rockefeller then get an attorney.

I was in sales for some 15+ years and have gotten pretty good at decyphering what people are REALLY saying and reading in between the lines. Your first post said: "I can't find an attorney to take this one they were all honest with me and don't wanna touch it" my ad-lib but for the most part accurate. Than you post back and say: "Well you must have more money than me I can probably find an attorney to take this but at what price". Again my ad-lib but pretty close to what you were saying. Two very different and contradictory statements. First you're saying "I can't get an attorney" and then you are saying "Well I can get one but at what price". So the main objective here Mr. Rockefeller is COST. Like I said I wasn't in sales for so long without being able to pick up on what people are really saying and their main objective or stumbling block. Yours my good sir....is COST. Which is fine I could really give a rats behind if you can or cannot afford an attorney but you are giving conflicting information here. Either there ARE attorneys that will take this but you don't wanna shell out the money for it OR there are not.

Which is it?

Now I'll remind you to try and remain civil here as you are bordering on p!ssing me off. And before you accuse me of being an 'internet bully' and a 'keyboard cowboy' and any other nonsense I have been nice with my posting to you up until this point and it is YOU that has started taking jabs. But I'm slowly losing my patience with your snide remarks however.


Like I said before folks everyone's situation is different. No point in getting in a brew ha ha over this conversation. I'm like norm and don't want anything against me as it would not look good on the job front. But Sod you say a lot of what you would do and that may sway some other person to do it based on what you say and have no facts to prove your case. I asked before if you know a lawyer that you can ask and have him verify all of what you say. You seem to ignore this request. You can get a copy of the letter and ask the lawyer most have no 1st call fees. Let's back up what you preach. No hard feelings just would like to see some facts. Like I said I payed mine just want to see if anyone actually wins??

Why would I contact an attorney when this is the exact reason why I'm smart enough to avoid IKS. I have no dog in the race.

I'll get you a copy of a Michigan telephone book and you can call some. I'm sure there are plenty that will take your case. There is no real way for me to 'prove' what I would or wouldn't do under fire. But a lot of you know me and you know that I generally back up the smack I talk.

[kboom]

B/C you are not an attorney. So really not qualified to say what you are saying, that's all. You don't have to have a dog in the race to get information, especially if it would back up what you are saying. That's all, don't see the problem with it. Come on laugh a little.

[alex70olds]

B/C you are not an attorney. So really not qualified to say what you are saying, that's all. You don't have to have a dog in the race to get information, especially if it would back up what you are saying. That's all, don't see the problem with it. Come on laugh a little.

I have seen him post over and over he is not an attorney. That does not mean we can not have a great discussion because we are not members of the bar. I don't have a dog in the race either, but I can guarantee I can site more cases regarding this issue than 99% of those accepted by the bar. I have been around this game forever.

[sodusme]

B/C you are not an attorney. So really not qualified to say what you are saying, that's all. You don't have to have a dog in the race to get information, especially if it would back up what you are saying. That's all, don't see the problem with it. Come on laugh a little.

Oh I am laughing....

I'm not angry with you in the least bit. I just don't see the relevance of me saying "Yeah I talked with an attorney and he said this or he said that". That isn't going to help anyone. A lot of what gets posted on these forums is either A) misleading or B) out right wrong information.

Like Alex said I have in no way tired to represent myself as an attorney I'm simply looking at all the evidence (as I know it since I obviously don't have a letter) and trying to reason some of it away. Like the fact that they are citing a paragraph of the DMCA that cannot be proven. I don't care how many people say they can prove that DMCA clause....they simply cannot. There is no logical way without ISP logs that they can prove beyond a preponderance of the evidence that your receiver was parked on channel XYZ for X amount of time resulting in a loss of X amount of dollars in programing. It simply cannot be proven from some 'codes' alone. Now if they have ISP logs than yeah your goose is cooked. Otherwise its utter hogwash.

All we are trying to do here is have a conversation and reason some of this out like adults. I don't need people telling me "Well you must have more money than me" and "Why don't you call an attorney". I'm not gonna bother doing all that. You all are grown adults here. If you were grown up enough to use IKS than you have made your bed and now you have to lie in it. That may sound harsh but I meant it when I said I was smart enough not to use IKS. A few of us on these forums have recited the dangers of it for many, many years. It all fell on deaf ears. So now I'm supposed to comb through the phone book and call a bunch of attorneys and relay back what they said? Sorry bro' but I'm busy man and I don't have time for that stuff.

[norm155]

OK Mr. Rockefeller then get an attorney.

I was in sales for some 15+ years and have gotten pretty good at decyphering what people are REALLY saying and reading in between the lines. Your first post said: "I can't find an attorney to take this one they were all honest with me and don't wanna touch it" my ad-lib but for the most part accurate. Than you post back and say: "Well you must have more money than me I can probably find an attorney to take this but at what price". Again my ad-lib but pretty close to what you were saying. Two very different and contradictory statements. First you're saying "I can't get an attorney" and then you are saying "Well I can get one but at what price". So the main objective here Mr. Rockefeller is COST. Like I said I wasn't in sales for so long without being able to pick up on what people are really saying and their main objective or stumbling block. Yours my good sir....is COST. Which is fine I could really give a rats behind if you can or cannot afford an attorney but you are giving conflicting information here. Either there ARE attorneys that will take this but you don't wanna shell out the money for it OR there are not.

Which is it?

Now I'll remind you to try and remain civil here as you are bordering on p!ssing me off. And before you accuse me of being an 'internet bully' and a 'keyboard cowboy' and any other nonsense I have been nice with my posting to you up until this point and it is YOU that has started taking jabs. But I'm slowly losing my patience with your snide remarks however.



Why would I contact an attorney when this is the exact reason why I'm smart enough to avoid IKS. I have no dog in the race.

I'll get you a copy of a Michigan telephone book and you can call some. I'm sure there are plenty that will take your case. There is no real way for me to 'prove' what I would or wouldn't do under fire. But a lot of you know me and you know that I generally back up the smack I talk.
You seem to have all the answers ....and think to know me..If you think this can be beaten then by all means try it and prove us all wrong

[sodusme]

You seem to have all the answers ....and think to know me..If you think this can be beaten then by all means try it and prove us all wrong

I think you know it can be beaten too but again your 'objective' is cost.

I noticed you didn't refute that assessment but rather switched gears again. That is an all too familiar tactic when someone doesn't want to admit the truth.

So lets ask again: Are there attorneys that WILL take this and you are not willing to shell out the money or are there NOT any attorneys willing to take this? Its a simple question norm?

[kboom]

Now that sounds like logic 101 in college. lol. It obviously all boils down to (how deep are your pockets). Who is right and who is wrong is not the question. Would love to be sitting on an extra $100,000. to play with. But to just throw it away to prove a point...I would have to think about pretty hard. $3,500 can be lost at the crap table in a few min. It's all a game my friend sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but the game goes on. Until someone actually goes to court and wins or loses everything said here is just opinions. The discussion is great just want folks that read this to understand that nothing is set in concrete and don't take things the wrong way. Dam have to go to work.

[norm155]

I think you know it can be beaten too but again your 'objective' is cost.

I noticed you didn't refute that assessment but rather switched gears again. That is an all too familiar tactic when someone doesn't want to admit the truth.

So lets ask again: Are there attorneys that WILL take this and you are not willing to shell out the money or are there NOT any attorneys willing to take this? Its a simple question norm?

Again your so confident you could beat it so why not help the others that need help ..dish out the cash prove us wrong

[sodusme]

Again your so confident you could beat it so why not help the others that need help ..dish out the cash prove us wrong

You need to help yourself before a default judgment is entered against you my good man.

I've already helped you all I can. You are unwilling to be honest with yourself (or the forum) so there is nothing more I can do for you.

[norm155]

Ok like i said i seen no way out of it nor did any lawyers i talked to so i worked out an agreement to pay them rather than to lose time and money at work. My job means more to me than taking a chance on spending more money on this bull ****. If you think it can be beaten have at it and prove it to others because from what i see so far your about the only one that can beat it..good luck to you if you get a letter.

[sodusme]

Ok like i said i seen no way out of it nor did any lawyers i talked to so i worked out an agreement to pay them rather than to lose time and money at work. My job means more to me than taking a chance on spending more money on this bull ****. If you think it can be beaten have at it and prove it to others because from what i see so far your about the only one that can beat it..good luck to you if you get a letter.

So it was about 'money' than not that you couldn't find an attorney or that none would take it? You could have 'taken a chance' as you put it and actually retained an attorney than? I realize you have other financial obligations and again that is not my business but you led people to believe that every attorney you talked to wouldn't touch this and than in subsequent posts now you are eluding to the fact that it was a financial decision on your part.

I'm not trying to beat you up over this I'm really not. But when you're posting here you need to post the truth and if the truth is "Look I didn't wanna throw money at this" than that is the cold hard truth. People are looking towards you guys that got letters for advise and you may or may not sway someones decision by telling them that you were not able to find an attorney....when in actuality it was for financial reasons that you chose not to go that route. Someone might be reading your post and say "Well this guy couldn't get an attorney so I'm not even gonna try".

I don't have a letter nor would I get a letter but if I did get one I would gladly take you up on your offer of proving that it can be beaten. Honestly I would relish the day I'm hauled into court over some nonsense like this. I'm not attorney but I am damn smart and I'm not saying that you or anyone else reading this is not just as capable....but I don't cotton well to idle threats. I've been threatened several times by Comcast for actions arising on my network. I fire off an email or two and a phone call here or there and the dogs relent. I'm still here and I'm still doing what I do.

My apologies if you read more into my posts than what I was stating. My only goal is to try to reason some of this stuff out and maybe give insight into what more evidence they could or could not have. That is all I hope to achieve. I am not independently wealthy, I'm not an attorney, I'm not anyone but a smart@ss tech savvy guy that specializes in online security and I enjoy some good banter now and than.

[Bad]

Ok like i said i seen no way out of it nor did any lawyers i talked to so i worked out an agreement to pay them rather than to lose time and money at work. My job means more to me than taking a chance on spending more money on this bull ****. If you think it can be beaten have at it and prove it to others because from what i see so far your about the only one that can beat it..good luck to you if you get a letter.

When you received the letter, was the code still active?

[norm155]

I really hope you get a letter so all the members here can see how you do.Each and every person that gets a letter has to make there own decision on what to do. All i am saying is i have the cash to fight this but why fight a losing battle ,why is it so hard for you to understand? The lawyers i have talked to are not only good but are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion on what to do so if you or anyone else does not want to believe it i wont lose no sleep over it. I am done with this.. my $3500 is paid so this hobby is now in the past.

[sodusme]

I really hope you get a letter so all the members here can see how you do.Each and every person that gets a letter has to make there own decision on what to do. All i am saying is i have the cash to fight this but why fight a losing battle ,why is it so hard for you to understand? The lawyers i have talked to are not only good but are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion on what to do so if you or anyone else does not want to believe it i wont lose no sleep over it. I am done with this.. my $3500 is paid so this hobby is now in the past.

Trust me I won't get one....

Nice public announcement btw. First it was:
work out a payment plan with dish and make a decision either stop with IKS or risk getting cought AGAIN !!!!! and now its:
my $3500 is paid so this hobby is now in the past.

Very interesting posts. Hope you get your 'bonus' for reeling in the payments for Hagan, Noll and Boyle. Fear mongering always works....well maybe it doesn't. ;)

[Recove52]

I'm not anyone but a smart@ss tech savvy guy that specializes in online security and I enjoy some good banter now and than.
And has repeated in numerous post ,the results that can happen using IKS...you would think some would get a clue: Thanks Sod

[JCO]

I really hope you get a letter so all the members here can see how you do.Each and every person that gets a letter has to make there own decision on what to do. All i am saying is i have the cash to fight this but why fight a losing battle ,why is it so hard for you to understand? The lawyers i have talked to are not only good but are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion on what to do so if you or anyone else does not want to believe it i wont lose no sleep over it. I am done with this.. my $3500 is paid so this hobby is now in the past.

If you settled arent you breaking the setlement by posting on an FTA site??

[Grave Digger]

All i am saying is i have the cash to fight this but why fight a losing battle

i have read many of your posts and you have made many remarks that indicate you are a fairly wealthy individual, so i have to question why somebody who has a great job, and is apparently as wealthy as you are is using IKS in the first place? going by your remarks i draw the conclusion that you could easily afford a good sub account, so why bother taking the risk of IKS to begin with?

[alex70olds]

i have read many of your posts and you have made many remarks that indicate you are a fairly wealthy individual, so i have to question why somebody who has a great job, and is apparently as wealthy as you are is using IKS in the first place? going by your remarks i draw the conclusion that you could easily afford a good sub account, so why bother taking the risk of IKS to begin with?

See Sod, we did not need DU to post it after all lol.

[1boxman]

i have read many of your posts and you have made many remarks that indicate you are a fairly wealthy individual, so i have to question why somebody who has a great job, and is apparently as wealthy as you are is using IKS in the first place? going by your remarks i draw the conclusion that you could easily afford a good sub account, so why bother taking the risk of IKS to begin with?

What does wealth have to do with it????some..that want to take a risk or see it as a hobby . The old days ..am sure there were many that could afford subs and did and do have them for back up . Some do have there own reasons for taking the risk .All choices

[norm155]

I think you know it can be beaten too but again your 'objective' is cost.

I noticed you didn't refute that assessment but rather switched gears again. That is an all too familiar tactic when someone doesn't want to admit the truth.

So lets ask again: Are there attorneys that WILL take this and you are not willing to shell out the money or are there NOT any attorneys willing to take this? Its a simple question norm?

What do you not understand..they are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion..I am sure any other lawyer would say ya we will take the case ..but why pay when I was assured they could not see anyway to win!!!!

[jeldf]

What do you not understand..they are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion..I am sure any other lawyer would say ya we will take the case ..but why pay when I was assured they could not see anyway to win!!!!

OK norm....cut your loss and give up this thread......it's becoming your life! Move on.

[sodusme]

What do you not understand..they are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion..I am sure any other lawyer would say ya we will take the case ..but why pay when I was assured they could not see anyway to win!!!!

I think you are losing track of what posts to quote here. This post of mine you are quoting is from like 3 comments ago?....which you already commented on? Any special reason why you decided to revisit this one post of mine?

Since you didn't answer JCO I'd also like to know how you are able to 'post' again on an FTA site when your apology letter stipulates you will not engage in any piracy behavior again?

So a couple 'family friend lawyers' is indicative of ALL attorneys than? Or are there perhaps some attorneys that would probably take this? Apparently there ARE attorneys that will take this as I'm sure I saw some defense attorneys listed in all those cases Alex was kind enough to post. In fact a couple of them didn't do too shabby for their clients.

I'm just gonna come right out now and say this: Something doesn't smell right about your posting bro'. You are all over the board with the reasoning on why you didn't move forward and pursue this. First it was that the attorneys wouldn't take it. Than it was that the attorneys advised you there was no case. Than it was that you didn't wanna throw money at this. Than it was that maybe you could find an attorney but at what price. Than it was that you couldn't have judgments against you because of your job. Than there were a couple public announcements sprinkled in.

Very suspicious if you ask me. The only reason I even touched on this is because you won't leave this alone. I even issued you an apology....a PUBLIC f'ing apology....and STILL you persist. You are very dogged in your attempts to try to convince others that there is no case here and they are better off paying. Almost like a P.I would be....

[MarvinGardens]

To those who think there is a defense to this you do not have to wait until DN sues you to test the legality of their infringement action.

Without admitting any wrong doing anyone can sue DN for a "Declaratory Judgment" otherwise known as "Declaratory Relief".

So instead of badgering those who settled, now is your chance to prove that you really have the cahones to back up your preaching.

Otherwise you are just a narcissistic little pissant.

[waldo]

If you settled arent you breaking the setlement by posting on an FTA site??

arent you 2

[sodusme]

To those who think there is a defense to this you do not have to wait until DN sues you to test the legality of their infringement action.

Without admitting any wrong doing anyone can sue DN for a "Declaratory Judgment" otherwise known as "Declaratory Relief".

So instead of badgering those who settled, now is your chance to prove that you really have the cahones to back up your preaching.

Otherwise you are just a narcissistic little pissant.

Excuse me?

So what would you call your little antagonistic smart*ss comment there?

You moles make me laugh. Tell you what brother when you got the cahone's I got which loosely translated means to do what ever the hell I want to do on the internet and not have to look back....than you come talk to me. I've done things on here that would have you p*ssing in your pants afraid that the cops would be knocking on your door tomorrow. Don't talk to me about 'cahones'.

[Azul2]

To those who think there is a defense to this you do not have to wait until DN sues you to test the legality of their infringement action.

Without admitting any wrong doing anyone can sue DN for a "Declaratory Judgment" otherwise known as "Declaratory Relief".

So instead of badgering those who settled, now is your chance to prove that you really have the cahones to back up your preaching.

Otherwise you are just a narcissistic little pissant.
Don't start the name calling. Not cool!!!!!!!!
A-2

[MarvinGardens]

I look forward to you representing yourself against DN in a Declaratory action.

[sodusme]

I look forward to you representing yourself against DN in a Declaratory action.

Why would you look forward to that?

If anything you should probably be looking over your shoulder for me. ;)

[MarvinGardens]

I am not going to lose any sleep LOL.

[Anubis]

Alrighty folks, let's keep it nice in the sandbox.

[sodusme]

I am not going to lose any sleep LOL.

That's the right attitude....;)

So how long have you been a DN mole? Does it pay well? I'm only asking 'cause we have had this conversation before. You seem to know waaaaaaay more than the common man on this legal stuff and you apparently loath signal theft as you are always siding for the side of the 'law'....but yet you loiter on an FTA site?

Certainly makes a sole wonder? Quite curious if you ask me.

[steveb111]

looks like he is running scared since he is online yet no response well sodusme you did it again lol

[norm155]

Ok if someone wants to fight it have at it i am not stoping anyone..just stating my case mu opinion and what i have been told..if someone can beat it great more power to them.

[dishuser]

arent you 2what settlement did he make?

[sodusme]

what settlement did he make?

I wondered that too....

I thought 'ole JCO was holding out on us? JCO you holding out bro'? Come on man where are the court docs? Alex fire up that pacer account and search out JCO....LOL

[alex70olds]

what settlement did he make?


I wondered that too....

I thought 'ole JCO was holding out on us? JCO you holding out bro'? Come on man where are the court docs? Alex fire up that pacer account and search out JCO....LOL

Consider the source, "He sees RAT People". Sent me some interesting PM's also. Almost enough to P I S S me off. But I promised JCO I would stay out of trouble lmfao! :-)

[dishuser]

Consider the source, "He sees RAT People". Sent me some interesting PM's also. Almost enough to P I S S me off. But I promised JCO I would stay out of trouble lmfao! :-)

sounds like a blossoming turd...lol

[MarvinGardens]

So how long have you been a DN mole?

A mole would not tell you to how to fight DN's allegations as I have.

You still have not responded on why you will not be the champion and go after DN.

After all you said that a child could do it, then why not you?

[waldo]

nope no turd...how the jets do..not so good ehhhh

[dishuser]

nope no turd...how the jets do..not so good ehhhh

who here would care about the jets?
it's not like bobby hull is still playing for them...lol

[sodusme]

A mole would not tell you to how to fight DN's allegations as I have.

You still have not responded on why you will not be the champion and go after DN.

After all you said that a child could do it, then why not you?

OH I remember you NOW....

You're that guy that kept coming up with new and creative ways on how his router could be 'secured' and would never admit when someone breaks your encryption who is at fault....you or the ISP?

http://www.satfix.net/showthread.php?129137-Net-providers-begin-warning-of-illegal-downloads/page4

Still got a hard on for me huh? HAHAHAHA well join the club buddy lots do. Just remember you will always be out of my league so keep trying to be the 'big man'.

[kboom]

This is better than watching tv. Who is going to bring on the next attack. lol

[kyzursozay]

if I win the powerball jackpot tonight I prromise to retain monsieur Pierre Faudlin for the exclusive benefit of satfix members with demand letters .......... keep your fingers crossed lol

[sodusme]

if I win the powerball jackpot tonight I prromise to retain monsieur Pierre Faudlin for the exclusive benefit of satfix members with demand letters .......... keep your fingers crossed lol

Now THAT'S funny....

Good luck on the powerball though. :thumbsup:

[JCO]

Alrighty folks, let's keep it nice in the sandbox.

Well said Anubis , we dont want to have to bury anyone in the kitty litter.:devil:

[JCO]

what settlement did he make?


I wondered that too....

I thought 'ole JCO was holding out on us? JCO you holding out bro'? Come on man where are the court docs? Alex fire up that pacer account and search out JCO....LOL


Consider the source, "He sees RAT People". Sent me some interesting PM's also. Almost enough to P I S S me off. But I promised JCO I would stay out of trouble lmfao! :-)


sounds like a blossoming turd...lol


who here would care about the jets?
it's not like bobby hull is still playing for them...lol

Umm maybe I will settle .. With BAndit.. I propose he goes back to flipping burgers and leave us alone..
Does anyone second the motion.

ROFLMAO

[spams]

I second that motion in the ocean lol

[norm155]

Excuse me?

So what would you call your little antagonistic smart*ss comment there?

You moles make me laugh. Tell you what brother when you got the cahone's I got which loosely translated means to do what ever the hell I want to do on the internet and not have to look back....than you come talk to me. I've done things on here that would have you p*ssing in your pants afraid that the cops would be knocking on your door tomorrow. Don't talk to me about 'cahones'.

LMAO you have a lot of talk but where is the proof

[jeldf]

LMAO you have a lot of talk but where is the proof

Not sure you would like the proof lol

[surfinisfun]

Not sure you would like the proof lol

Ahh, Sod may as well leave this boy alone, its clear he knows not what he asks.lol

[norm155]

Ahh, Sod may as well leave this boy alone, its clear he knows not what he asks.lol

Boy..ya right..i have put 2 kids through college have i an excellent job...I have seen more things in the past 20 yrs that would make people's jaw drop.So far from a boy..so ohh great Sod share your wisdom..

[surfinisfun]

Boy..ya right..i have put 2 kids through college have i an excellent job...I have seen more things in the past 20 yrs that would make people's jaw drop.So far from a boy..so ohh great Sod share your wisdom..

Not to get to off topic but, if you all that......Why you hanging around here boy?

As far as i'm concerned, troll on dude.

[surfinisfun]

I did see this post....take it for info if you like.

C/P from registereduser716

After reading this thread, I was compelled to respond. I too have received the letter, and consulted with 2 attorneys who basically told me the same thing. Let them threaten you all they want, they cannot prove that you in fact used the code. So with that in mind, if you have deep pockets and don't care, pay them. If you are willing to risk a law suit that you will win due to lack of proof wait to get served then fight them. There is no guarantee how much your attorney will cost you but the bottom line is they need to prove you used the code.
2 more things to mention, they only sue 10% of the people they sue letters to, which in itself is good odds (17,000 cases out of 170,000 letters sent out). If you contact them or have an attorney contact them you will be getting sued because you put yourself on the hook. Also take note of the cases cited in quotes at the bottom of your letter, these were all people operating sites and selling tons of codes and hosting sites which teaches people how to circumvent their security. Good luck to you all!
Just my 2 cents, hope it helped some of you out...

[sodusme]

Boy..ya right..i have put 2 kids through college have i an excellent job...I have seen more things in the past 20 yrs that would make people's jaw drop.So far from a boy..so ohh great Sod share your wisdom..

Just drop it already....

Like others have said I don't think you'd like the outcome. Apparently you are not familiar with what I pass my time doing. 'Nuf said now I'll encourage you to troll on down the road before you make me misbehave.

[sodusme]

Oops where are my manners.....

Here is that 'proof' that you wanted norm 'ole boy.

18411

[sodusme]

I did see this post....take it for info if you like.

C/P from registereduser716

After reading this thread, I was compelled to respond. I too have received the letter, and consulted with 2 attorneys who basically told me the same thing. Let them threaten you all they want, they cannot prove that you in fact used the code. So with that in mind, if you have deep pockets and don't care, pay them. If you are willing to risk a law suit that you will win due to lack of proof wait to get served then fight them. There is no guarantee how much your attorney will cost you but the bottom line is they need to prove you used the code.
2 more things to mention, they only sue 10% of the people they sue letters to, which in itself is good odds (17,000 cases out of 170,000 letters sent out). If you contact them or have an attorney contact them you will be getting sued because you put yourself on the hook. Also take note of the cases cited in quotes at the bottom of your letter, these were all people operating sites and selling tons of codes and hosting sites which teaches people how to circumvent their security. Good luck to you all!
Just my 2 cents, hope it helped some of you out...

So basically this guys attorneys are saying they don't really have a case....because they can't prove you actually used the codes?

Hmm who'd of thunk it? I am really surprised by that. ;)

LOL

[surfinisfun]

So basically this guys attorneys are saying they don't really have a case....because they can't prove you actually used the codes?

Hmm who'd of thunk it? I am really surprised by that. ;)

LOL

Shocking isn't it.lol

Prove something before you can convict, who knew.lol

[norm155]

Oops where are my manners.....

Here is that 'proof' that you wanted norm 'ole boy.

18411

Lmao..ok so i guess i can make that also and call myself an expert

[norm155]

amazing... now lets see someone try it and beat it

[sodusme]

Lmao..ok so i guess i can make that also and call myself an expert

LOL yeah....its made up all right.

Might wanna Google my nick before you continue to look foolish.

I'm not sure what your deal is buddy I already told you I seceded. I also told you I was sorry if you misinterpreted anything I might have posted here however I'm not here to kiss your @ss, but just so there is no misinterpretation now: You continue this b.s. and I'll show you just how much of an 'expert' I can be.

I've had just about enough of you. Are you clear on that?

[Azul2]

amazing... now lets see someone try it and beat it
Tell you what Norm. Anyone that knows Sod knows he has considerable skills. Just let it go and move on.
A-2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Ok like i said i seen no way out of it nor did any lawyers i talked to so i worked out an agreement to pay them rather than to lose time and money at work. My job means more to me than taking a chance on spending more money on this bull ****. If you think it can be beaten have at it and prove it to others because from what i see so far your about the only one that can beat it..good luck to you if you get a letter.


What you decided to do for yourself is fine. Unless your actually in the shoes you really don't know what you will end up doing.


Although we don't know yet you could come out of this better than ones who decide to roll the dice. You did not want to gamble on this with perhaps costing you more and I think people should accept that decision.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

So basically this guys attorneys are saying they don't really have a case....because they can't prove you actually used the codes?

Hmm who'd of thunk it? I am really surprised by that. ;)

LOL


Although I could be wrong I do not think they will need to prove you that you actually used the codes in the Civil proceeding. It really comes down to it be more likely than not. I think with evidence of purchasing codes that have one purpose along with evidence you have equipment than a court could decide it was more likely than not.



GS2

[sodusme]

Although I could be wrong I do not think they will need to prove you that you actually used the codes in the Civil proceeding. It really comes down to it be more likely than not. I think with evidence of purchasing codes that have one purpose along with evidence you have equipment than a court could decide it was more likely than not.



GS2

Yes exactly correct....

Whats gonna be tough is if you have posted out in the open about "Great fight" or "Thanks for the open XYZ channel" and so forth. A preponderance of the evidence is what will get most folks. However on the other side of that if you have been extremely cagey and never posted out in the open or through PM's etc. than I don't know that it will be that easy to prove on DN's part. Of course that could be why they are picking and choosing their battles? Who knows....:noidea:

[tinhsoftware]

I wonder how would dn know the name and address of the end users. Did they collect those info from internet provider?

[dishuser]

I wonder how would dn know the name and address of the end users. Did they collect those info from internet provider?
really?
how about from paypal?

[sodusme]

I wonder how would dn know the name and address of the end users. Did they collect those info from internet provider?

Dude Paypal rolled like a mutt with fleas. They cannot be trusted.

[Benney]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[tinhsoftware]

Dude Paypal rolled like a mutt with fleas. They cannot be trusted.

so users can stay away with problem if they use payment without their info on it?

[sodusme]

so users can stay away with problem if they use payment without their info on it?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking? Are you asking can they avoid problems if they don't attach any info. in the comments to the Paypal transaction? Is that what you are asking?

If it is I won't give any advice for using Paypal other than do NOT trust them. They will roll on you and it doesn't take much.

[jeldf]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking? Are you asking can they avoid problems if they don't attach any info. in the comments to the Paypal transaction? Is that what you are asking?

If it is I won't give any advice for using Paypal other than do NOT trust them. They will roll on you and it doesn't take much.

PP is owned by E-Bay and we all know E-Bay will roll on anyone making a bad PP transaction. It's part of their ULA. E-Bay would lose a ton of business if PP was not 'above' board. I'm sure PP is on DN's radar for shady transactions with E-Bay's blessing.

[Grave Digger]

Yes exactly correct....

Whats gonna be tough is if you have posted out in the open about "Great fight" or "Thanks for the open XYZ channel" and so forth. A preponderance of the evidence is what will get most folks. However on the other side of that if you have been extremely cagey and never posted out in the open or through PM's etc. than I don't know that it will be that easy to prove on DN's part. Of course that could be why they are picking and choosing their battles? Who knows....:noidea:

this is what it all comes down to.....people incriminate themselves, and only have there self to blame!

watch what the F you post on PUBLIC FORUMS FOR ANYONE TO READ!

people who go around saying stupid crap like "excellent UFC fight! thanks NFPS!" are complete idiots and have nobody to blame but themselves!

or even if you post something about freezing, THAT IS AN ADMISSION TO GUILT! THAT PROVES YOU ARE USING AN ILLEGAL IKS SERVICE!

for the love of GOD use your head people!

sometimes i think there is no possible way people can be so stupid....but then i come on here and read these types of posts and people prove me wrong,



..

[sami1977]

ok after reading all that, if I decide to settle what's the prove they wont come after me again. Before paying the 3500$ could they send me a letter mention that they won’t pursuit me if future. did anybody negotiate before settling. Did anybody paid and get confirmation about it? Did anybody went to court and win the case?

[Limon]

Reading elswhere it appears that dn got Wuf's panel which lists his clients and gives a lot of incriminating data. It shows your home IP if you are connected to the server, what channel you are watching and how long you have been on that channel. With that 'they' can prove you connected to the server. One guy did try to fight it, but when presented with this evidence he folded. Ended up settling for 75,000.

Wuf couldn't have made it easier for them.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

ok after reading all that, if I decide to settle what's the prove they wont come after me again. Before paying the 3500$ could they send me a letter mention that they won’t pursuit me if future. did anybody negotiate before settling. Did anybody paid and get confirmation about it? Did anybody went to court and win the case?


If you settle than they can not come after you again for the same incident you settled on. However if you were to violate again on a new incident and they had evidence there would be nothing stopping them for going after you on the new incident.

If you settled part of the settlement would be you agreeing that you would not do it again so you could be creating a possible legal issue possibly worse than before if you continued and they found out about it.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Reading elswhere it appears that dn got Wuf's panel which lists his clients and gives a lot of incriminating data. It shows your home IP if you are connected to the server, what channel you are watching and how long you have been on that channel. With that 'they' can prove you connected to the server. One guy did try to fight it, but when presented with this evidence he folded. Ended up settling for 75,000.

Wuf couldn't have made it easier for them.


It would be helpful if you had more details on this case being the party ( defendant's name and state ) so it could be looked up to see what happened.


The information your providing suggests they have more evidence that is incriminating and I have not heard/seen that before more that speculation. I am not sure that a case at this stage would have gone to the point of them disclosing this evidence just because of the timing and these cases ( Wuf ) being fairly new as far as court goes.



GS2

[alex70olds]

If you settle than they can not come after you again for the same incident you settled on. However if you were to violate again on a new incident and they had evidence there would be nothing stopping them for going after you on the new incident.

If you settled part of the settlement would be you agreeing that you would not do it again so you could be creating a possible legal issue possibly worse than before if you continued and they found out about it.



GS2

Here is the problem. They should get some guarantee that they can not pursue action for past activity. For example, they bought a code from reseller X, and that ia what the letter is for. So they settle. Then as more of these resellers go down, they find that you bought a code from Y, but it was in the past. They need some sort of agreement that since it was not a future violation, they dont have to pay again. Very tricky to do, I would think,

[homer_™]

Reading elswhere it appears that dn got Wuf's panel which lists his clients and gives a lot of incriminating data. It shows your home IP if you are connected to the server, what channel you are watching and how long you have been on that channel. With that 'they' can prove you connected to the server. One guy did try to fight it, but when presented with this evidence he folded. Ended up settling for 75,000.

Wuf couldn't have made it easier for them.

75,000? I don't believe you.

[alex70olds]

75,000? I don't believe you.


http://dsspros.com/forum/legal-issues-fta/96649-regestered-letter-11.html#post381909

I do, it explains a few other things as well. That is why I just posted here what I did. ;)

[1boxman]

Here is the problem. They should get some guarantee that they can not pursue action for past activity. For example, they bought a code from reseller X, and that ia what the letter is for. So they settle. Then as more of these resellers go down, they find that you bought a code from Y, but it was in the past. They need some sort of agreement that since it was not a future violation, they dont have to pay again. Very tricky to do, I would think,

Thats kinda what I have been saying..they should agreement all so to protect themselves against another ..which I believe in civil they can do it .PLus I feel this why they are going civil .

Here is something for a few to read ..The double Jeopardy
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/What+Constitutes+the+Same+Offense

All so to add...having more than one code...is it the same offence or different .? and it is civil .

[sodusme]

Thats kinda what I have been saying..they should agreement all so to protect themselves against another ..which I believe in civil they can do it .PLus I feel this why they are going civil .

Here is something for a few to read ..The double Jeopardy
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/What+Constitutes+the+Same+Offense

All so to add...having more than one code...is it the same offence or different .? and it is civil .

Double jeopardy only applies to criminal. In civil its called res judicata.

Any time you deal with copyright infringement regardless of whether its your 1st or 10th offense I don't believe it can be any thing but civil. Reason being is the statute that you are sued under is civil in nature.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Here is the problem. They should get some guarantee that they can not pursue action for past activity. For example, they bought a code from reseller X, and that ia what the letter is for. So they settle. Then as more of these resellers go down, they find that you bought a code from Y, but it was in the past. They need some sort of agreement that since it was not a future violation, they dont have to pay again. Very tricky to do, I would think,



Asking for protection against other activity is somewhat admitting to it. Not sure that is wise. Best for a lawyer to advise.



GS2

[cheff]

Asking for protection against other activity is somewhat admitting to it. Not sure that is wise. Best for a lawyer to advise.



GS2

What if you had a statement from a letter saying they will release all " claims against you " plural ? once terms are settlement are fullfilled? Would that prevent further civil action such as folks that bought more than 1 code from wuf.

[sami1977]

I really hope you get a letter so all the members here can see how you do.Each and every person that gets a letter has to make there own decision on what to do. All i am saying is i have the cash to fight this but why fight a losing battle ,why is it so hard for you to understand? The lawyers i have talked to are not only good but are friends of the family and gave me there honest opinion on what to do so if you or anyone else does not want to believe it i wont lose no sleep over it. I am done with this.. my $3500 is paid so this hobby is now in the past.

So what did you write in a response to the letter and when you made the payment did you get a confirmation from them?that, there will be no further suit or fees ... Means any prove so you won't get anything in a future about this case.
For the people who get the letter how many agree to pay and move on and how many goin to court?

[sodusme]

So what did you write in a response to the letter and when you made the payment did you get a confirmation from them?that, there will be no further suit or fees ... Means any prove so you won't get anything in a future about this case.
For the people who get the letter how many agree to pay and move on and how many goin to court?

I'd start a poll up and title it "did you get a letter". Ask that only those that received a letter comment. Two choices: paid it or going to court.

[Hannibalector]

Double jeopardy only applies to criminal. In civil its called res judicata.

Any time you deal with copyright infringement regardless of whether its your 1st or 10th offense I don't believe it can be any thing but civil. Reason being is the statute that you are sued under is civil in nature.

from an interpretation of the Dames case with dismissal with prejudice

In civil litigation, dismissal with prejudice can take a couple of different forms. Once a case has been brought to court and a judgment has been made, the matter is concluded, or dismissed. The term "with prejudice" indicates the court cannot be asked to rule on the same issues again.

This is a similar legal doctrine to double jeopardy in a criminal case. In the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom and some other jurisdictions, a person cannot be tried for the same crime twice. Once the individual has been found not guilty, the matter effectively forms a dismissal with prejudice.

The other form that a dismissal with prejudice can take is when a civil case is dismissed by a judge on those terms. The judge effectively stops the plaintiff, who is the person claiming they suffered a loss or injury, from starting another lawsuit based on the same incident, or cause of action. The parties to the legal action may agree to a voluntary dismissal with prejudice if they settled the matter before it got in front of a judge.

A dismissal without prejudice is a different matter. Like a dismissal with prejudice, the legal action is finished. When this type of dismissal occurs, the plaintiff in the matter can bring a lawsuit before the court based on the same cause of action later if he or she chooses to do so

[alex70olds]

from an interpretation of the Dames case with dismissal with prejudice

In civil litigation, dismissal with prejudice can take a couple of different forms. Once a case has been brought to court and a judgment has been made, the matter is concluded, or dismissed. The term "with prejudice" indicates the court cannot be asked to rule on the same issues again.

This is a similar legal doctrine to double jeopardy in a criminal case. In the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom and some other jurisdictions, a person cannot be tried for the same crime twice. Once the individual has been found not guilty, the matter effectively forms a dismissal with prejudice.

The other form that a dismissal with prejudice can take is when a civil case is dismissed by a judge on those terms. The judge effectively stops the plaintiff, who is the person claiming they suffered a loss or injury, from starting another lawsuit based on the same incident, or cause of action. The parties to the legal action may agree to a voluntary dismissal with prejudice if they settled the matter before it got in front of a judge.

A dismissal without prejudice is a different matter. Like a dismissal with prejudice, the legal action is finished. When this type of dismissal occurs, the plaintiff in the matter can bring a lawsuit before the court based on the same cause of action later if he or she chooses to do so

Now dont pass out, I agree with you. The difference, finding evidence of a different code being bought, would not be subject to the dismissal of a previous case. A total new case.

[alex70olds]

Two new cases filed 5-22-2013. Davis and Gunkel. Eastern district of Texas Federal court.

Wuff rolled officially 7-12-2012.

IKS Control panel was at
eltwenty.com now papio. He claims only he and tinieblax had access to the eltwenty section. He rolled on tinie. tinie is out of US jurisdiction as far as I know.

Forgot to add, they are indeed using posts and PM's to substantiate using service along with IP, as well as the above. They are using ABA DB mostly, as well as public posts.

[Hannibalector]

Now dont pass out, I agree with you. The difference, finding evidence of a different code being bought, would not be subject to the dismissal of a previous case. A total new case.

LOL....well and to that I would say I agree as it states in this paragraph with this in bold


The other form that a dismissal with prejudice can take is when a civil case is dismissed by a judge on those terms. The judge effectively stops the plaintiff, who is the person claiming they suffered a loss or injury, from starting another lawsuit based on the same incident, or cause of action. The parties to the legal action may agree to a voluntary dismissal with prejudice if they settled the matter before it got in front of a judge.

I'd ask Faudlin for his opinion but all my questions seem to have limited answers, the ruling on "with prejudice" does get a bit merky in the 1st paragraph when it says (the court cannot be asked to rule on the same issues again.) but that's not to say they wouldn't try and proceed on another matter

[Grave Digger]

They are using ABA DB mostly, as well as public posts.

i dont see how that is possible,

how could they prove you are the same person from ABA, and the site where you bought the code?

the same forum nick doesn't mean anything, anybody could register the same name at a different site

[sodusme]

i dont see how that is possible,

how could they prove you are the same person from ABA, and the site where you bought the code?

the same forum nick doesn't mean anything, anybody could register the same name at a different site

They would have i.p.'s from ABA.

[dishuser]

They would have i.p.'s from ABA.

and same email addy's ;)

[Grave Digger]

They would have i.p.'s from ABA.

well then i guess only the stupid people will get caught, considering how easy it is to change your IP#

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

i dont see how that is possible,

how could they prove you are the same person from ABA, and the site where you bought the code?

the same forum nick doesn't mean anything, anybody could register the same name at a different site


If in Civil cases you had to prove everything 100% as some suggest no plaintiff would likely ever win. Some say you have to prove the defendant actually used the code like you have to be in the house and personally witness the defendant watching programming he was not authorized for.


However in Civil a judge can make a decision after seeing the evidence what is more likely than not. Even in Criminal circumstantial evidence if strong can be enough to convict.



GS2

[homer_™]

well then i guess only the stupid people will get caught, considering how easy it is to change your IP#

You only have to log in once with your real IP accidentally and they got you. Unless you change providers.

[sodusme]

You only have to log in once with your real IP accidentally and they got you. Unless you change providers.

LOL I was just thinking that.

It wouldn't matter how many times you changed your i.p. it would still all trace back to the same ISP under your same name.

[Tralman]

Any Canadians get ****ed

[Hannibalector]

LOL I was just thinking that.

It wouldn't matter how many times you changed your i.p. it would still all trace back to the same ISP under your same name.

which would require validation from the ISP to who'm the individual is by way of subpoena to that ISP not a panel from evidence gathered, it would be silly to say that the match wasn't verified by the ISP

[Hannibalector]

Any Canadians get ****ed

yes they're all fleeing to Alaska .......wooops

[alex70olds]

which would require validation from the ISP to who'm the individual is by way of subpoena to that ISP not a panel from evidence gathered, it would be silly to say that the match wasn't verified by the ISP

They match IP to PayPal, however, a simple subpoena to the ISP would also work.

[Grave Digger]

LOL I was just thinking that.

It wouldn't matter how many times you changed your i.p. it would still all trace back to the same ISP under your same name.

and what if the internet account is not under the same name as the person who buys the code?

example.....

somebody renting a room in a house buys a code, but the internet connection/account is under the home owners name?

a kid living at home buys a code, but the internet connection/account is under their parents name?

etc etc.....

just because you purchase a code, that doesn't mean you have an internet account of your own, you could have access to somebody elses account/internet usage

[sami1977]

Did anybody showed up in court since 2011 since this latter started. Could you represent your self in court or must need a lawyer

[Rongcon]

I just wonder who going to enforce the court judgment if DN going to win the case? The collection agency?

[azrak98]

hi guys i receive letter from to pay wrongful dish network and they said nfps it's ilegal so what i can do please

I moved your post here to where this is being discussed. I suggest you go to post #1 and start reading.

[cheff]

hi guys i receive letter from to pay wrongful dish network and they said nfps it's ilegal so what i can do please

I moved your post here to where this is being discussed. I suggest you go to post #1 and start reading.

You just received it today ? Did it come certified mail? Does it mention who you bought the codes from like Thomas Dixon? Wufman.

[iq180]

any body get this email from PP, new laws 2012, we need more info to prove who you are, SS# bank ACC# CC#,
so if PP cant prove who you are then DN cant use PP in court,
So I say this to PP, take that 8 USD that's on my ACC and stick where the sun don't shine, LOL
if you need a PP ACC then start a new one.

[Nostradamus]

any body get this email from PP, new laws 2012, we need more info to prove who you are, SS# bank ACC# CC#,
so if PP cant prove who you are then DN cant use PP in court,
So I say this to PP, take that 8 USD that's on my ACC and stick where the sun don't shine, LOL
if you need a PP ACC then start a new one.

that sounds more like one of those phishing emails than any kind of letter from paypal. Think about it, if you used PP for something then they would already have some of the info and could obtain any of the other things easily at that point.

and what good would creating a new account do? other than to give them the same info all over again

[iq180]

that sounds more like one of those phishing emails than any kind of letter from paypal. Think about it, if you used PP for something then they would already have some of the info and could obtain any of the other things easily at that point.

and what good would creating a new account do? other than to give them the same info all over again
that's a good point but if they cant prove who I am now they never will because I will never use them anymore, if I am buying
something that mite have legal problems I will use a prepaid CC that don't have my own info on it,LOL

[kboom]

Anyone else posting about getting a letter needs to read from post #1. Everything has been discussed. Anyone that has information of a case going to court and has the results would be interesting reading. Tks.

[Benney]

any body get this email from PP, new laws 2012, we need more info to prove who you are, SS# bank ACC# CC#,
so if PP cant prove who you are then DN cant use PP in court,
So I say this to PP, take that 8 USD that's on my ACC and stick where the sun don't shine, LOL
if you need a PP ACC then start a new one.

PP will never contact you for that kind of info through Email unless you initiated it.
It's a phishing scam.

[iq180]

PP will never contact you for that kind of info through Email unless you initiated it.
It's a phishing scam.
no its not a scam, it is PP, they want let me use my account till I give them the info they want.

[surfinisfun]

no its not a scam, it is PP, they want let me use my account till I give them the info they want.

I don't know man, i have a hard time believing thats anything other than a scam.

Is this U.S or Canada? - Have you actually tried a purchase thru PP since this e-mail?

[alex70olds]

I heard about this on another site. I was indeed PP, at least in that case. Easy enough to view source or original to determine the senders origin.

[iq180]

I don't know man, i have a hard time believing thats anything other than a scam.

Is this U.S or Canada? - Have you actually tried a purchase thru PP since this e-mail?
my PP account is locked, they did give me a 30 day warning so I moved my money to my prepaid Visa card that is on the PP account
then I used that card to put money on another card, well you get the idea, so now I only lose 8 usd, they can have that and I keep
my info.LOL.
I am in the US.

[sodusme]

I have heard of them doing this.


http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jspa?threadID=900328296&rw=true&anticache=1354899874914

[azrak98]

hi guys i would like to know what i can do for this situation i mean this letter so if somebody have right sugeggestion or any good advice because for me i didn't know that one is illegal just right now .so please help me

[mangohead]

hi guys i would like to know what i can do for this situation i mean this letter so if somebody have right sugeggestion or any good advice because for me i didn't know that one is illegal just right now .so please help meu need to read all this thread....from 1 to yours..good luck. I got the them letter 2....peace

[Grave Digger]

hi guys i would like to know what i can do for this situation i mean this letter so if somebody have right sugeggestion or any good advice because for me i didn't know that one is illegal just right now .so please help me

consult a lawyer

[sami1977]

hi guys i would like to know what i can do for this situation i mean this letter so if somebody have right sugeggestion or any good advice because for me i didn't know that one is illegal just right now .so please help me

Lol not illegal, who you kiding

[pugsycan]

Odds are your account was hacked and they shut it down to protect it Phone them up and talk to them Happened to mine twice
my PP account is locked, they did give me a 30 day warning so I moved my money to my prepaid Visa card that is on the PP account
then I used that card to put money on another card, well you get the idea, so now I only lose 8 usd, they can have that and I keep
my info.LOL.
I am in the US.

[azrak98]

guys ho's somebody receive this letter before i mean long time what he did and what he got i mean his win or other thanks guys any help me

[azrak98]

hi guys i would like to know if somebody get the same letter can tel me what he did to solve this problem please guys and thanks for any help

[mangohead]

You only have to log in once with your real IP accidentally and they got you. Unless you change providers.dosent matter wufman gave them all ur info....thank u wuf@#$%%

[tire]

wuf was a seller for who?dn and wait too all the letters come out again late in year from the other seller who happen to get sick who also work undercover

[dishuser]

wuf was a seller for who?dn and wait too all the letters come out again late in year from the other seller who happen to get sick who also work undercover

what other seller?

[bigbird]

what other seller?

I think he's referring to Vgiddy. We don't know the ramifications yet, so he's just speculating.

bigbird

[tire]

Bingo!!!!! who ever bought from him you will be getting a letter down the road from texas.never ever by from sellers

[Grave Digger]

Bingo!!!!! who ever bought from him you will be getting a letter down the road from texas.never ever by from sellers

i would not be surprised if people in canada get letters also, seeing as vgiddy is from canada

[dishuser]

i would not be surprised if people in canada get letters also, seeing as vgiddy is from canada

I doubt it

[lousat]

I doubt it

Why do you doubt it.

[dishuser]

Why do you doubt it.

big difference between seller and user

[surfinisfun]

For one thing Texas is not going to send demand letters to Canadians.

If they hired a Canadian law firm, maybe but even then......lots of red tape there i doubt its worth there while.

Now if it were a Bev issue.....maybe.

[dishuser]

For one thing Texas is not going to send demand letters to Canadians.

If they hired a Canadian law firm, maybe but even then......lots of red tape there i doubt its worth there while.

Now if it were a Bev issue.....maybe.dn has went after many fta dealers in the past...never an end user

[iq180]

remember that the rocket code & the nfps code works for b3v too so there is nothing stopping b3v from doing the same thing that
DN is doing, just because you are north of the us border don't mean you are safe,JMO.

[dishuser]

remember that the rocket code & the nfps code works for b3v too so there is nothing stopping b3v from doing the same thing that
DN is doing, just because you are north of the us border don't mean you are safe,JMO.
worx for bev?lol

[surfinisfun]

remember that the rocket code & the nfps code works for b3v too so there is nothing stopping b3v from doing the same thing that
DN is doing, just because you are north of the us border don't mean you are safe,JMO.

Is that right?

Answer: No that's not right.

[alvirgieca]

iq180,they said that rocket and nfps work only on dave not bev.

[iq180]

yes they did at one time and that is a fact, in fact wuf sold the codes back in mid 2011 that you could use for DN or b3v, that is a
fact, so as I did say in my other post being north of the us border don't mean you are safe, LOL.

[dishuser]

yes they did at one time and that is a fact, in fact wuf sold the codes back in mid 2011 that you could use for DN or b3v, that is a
fact, so as I did say in my other post being north of the us border don't mean you are safe, LOL.

who has received a letter that ordered 2 years ago?
and until at least one end user gets a letter in canada I'd say they're safe

[iq180]

who has received a letter that ordered 2 years ago?
and until at least one end user gets a letter in canada I'd say they're safe
there have been some dating back to 2011, I didn't say they would I did say they could, what's to stop DN from handing over
there info to b3v then b3v could start sending out letters, just because you are in Canada it don't mean you are safe.
IKS is not safe in any country, that is a fact.JMO.

[1boxman]

It is a joint between dn and bev that did more or less hire nagar . But the laws for piracy are different from the usa in Canada. There is a max limit of a fine that has been put in place for piracy . There is a law firm challenging this threw piracy downloads ...which doesnt look in there favor .

So for them to try and go cross boarder with dn ... At this time ...I doubt they would or even could at this time . Doesn't mean they won't at some point . They still have to take care of what they have in the usa .

But they do go after bev piracy ..but haven't seen a take down in a long time .

[mangohead]

what other seller?mmmmmlet me see ahnokia

[dishuser]

mmmmmlet me see ahnokia

he never said he was sick

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

You are not completely safe in Canada but there is far less likelihood of end users being pursued in Canada. Many many years ago as I understand Bev did send out demand letters to some end users in Canada but as far as I know they never actually filled any lawsuits. In that situation people who ignored paying on the demand letter did better. In that situation it amounted to a scare tactic but not aware of anything else that you could say that.


There is a clause in the Canadian law under civil action where the provider might be limited to seeking a maximum of $1,000 award. It would depend on how the court interpreted that clause if an end user would be protected. If not the provider still probably would not be awarded very much more. In Criminal cases the fines per violation as far as I know never went over $2,000 per violation for a dealer and would not see courts awarding. Both Canada and the US have laws against Sat piracy but the penalties given are or have been significantly higher in the US. I am not aware of any Canadian ever being sentenced to jail time for Sat piracy while there has been quite a few that were in the US.


In the US the provider can realize a much higher award on an end user. They are able to make more claims of violations of different laws while in Canada think they would be limited to just a claim of violation pertaining to the Canadian Radio Communication Act.



GS2

[ftaalltheway]

there have been some dating back to 2011, I didn't say they would I did say they could, what's to stop DN from handing over
there info to b3v then b3v could start sending out letters, just because you are in Canada it don't mean you are safe.
IKS is not safe in any country, that is a fact.JMO.


IKS is safe in any country UNLESS you are running (OVERPRICED) iksservers
and selling codes to connect to THAT server which means
they would be running subbed (dn/bev) cards and THAT is their (providers') ONLY interest
so, cross border hunting in THIS game?? 100% NIL
AND
the day DN goes hunting for iks hobbiests in the north
is the day BEV goes in parts of U.S. hunting iks hobbiest viewing
NOTSOFREE bev, THERE and THAT day, well, she never cums, period. ;)

too many fraidy cats , relax and enjoy.....

[alex70olds]

IKS is safe in any country UNLESS you are running (OVERPRICED) iksservers
and selling codes to connect to THAT server which means
they would be running subbed (dn/bev) cards and THAT is their (providers') ONLY interest
so, cross border hunting in THIS game?? 100% NIL
AND
the day DN goes hunting for iks hobbiests in the north
is the day BEV goes in parts of U.S. hunting iks hobbiest viewing
NOTSOFREE bev, THERE and THAT day, well, she never cums, period. ;)

too many fraidy cats , relax and enjoy.....

Huh? What? Are you sure? lol

[iq180]

IKS is safe in any country UNLESS you are running (OVERPRICED) iksservers
and selling codes to connect to THAT server which means
they would be running subbed (dn/bev) cards and THAT is their (providers') ONLY interest
so, cross border hunting in THIS game?? 100% NIL
AND
the day DN goes hunting for iks hobbiests in the north
is the day BEV goes in parts of U.S. hunting iks hobbiest viewing
NOTSOFREE bev, THERE and THAT day, well, she never cums, period. ;)

too many fraidy cats , relax and enjoy.....
so you think iks is safe, you need to ask the ones that got the $3,500.00 demand letters how safe it is.LOL.

[hamster]

I've been led to believe that Paypal is the source for catching end users. True or False?????

[Nostradamus]

I've been led to believe that Paypal is the source for catching end users. True or False?????

False! it is the IKS servers and resellers getting busted that will reveal you. Paypal just confirms it for them

[alex70olds]

I've been led to believe that Paypal is the source for catching end users. True or False?????

It is simple. People advertise their illegal service. D1sh in an effort to protect their property initiates the PM and purchas through PP. They get a comfirmation of purchase and account identity of reseller. D!sh goes to court and gets a subponea for all activity on this account. PP complies, as it has to by law. Now they have all records for this account. Simple.

[hondoharry]

False! it is the IKS servers and resellers getting busted that will reveal you. Paypal just confirms it for them

AFAIK there was only the DA server bust that resulted in letters. Reseller busts originate from PayPal as stated precisely by Alex. End users are revealed personally by PayPal, not by the reseller. The reseller may provide more evidence or not.

[cheff]

[QUOTE=hondoharry;966083]AFAIK there was only the DA server bust that resulted in letters. Reseller busts originate from PayPal as stated precisely by Alex. End users are revealed personally by PayPal, not by the reseller. The reseller may provide more evidence or not.[/QUOTE

Wufman turned over all his business records that's why all his customers got letters PP just confirmed it.

[Nostradamus]

actually it is the users asking stupid questions like is HBO down or making statements about how good the UFC fight was that gets a lot of these people red flagged. Then you have those insist on using their real name or email as a nick in the forums. Might as well just call them on the phone and confess

[alex70olds]

Wufman turned over all his business records that's why all his customers got letters PP just confirmed it.

How do you think they got his identity? It is not like he was feeling guilty and just gave them everything. It was exactly as I said. The records, which were in RTF, listed people by username and or email, not true names. The got Wuffs identity exactly as I said, same as Razor, BPG, Nexiks, etc., etc. And they will continue to do it as long as people are stupid enough to use IKS and even more idiotic use PP. And NOST is right also as they use your posts against you also.

[hondoharry]

Wufman turned over all his business records that's why all his customers got letters PP just confirmed it.

Not so. Wufman did not have access to personal info of his customers to send letters. Only PayPal had the personal info of Wuf AND his customers. Wuf's contribution was most likely forum nics, email addies and PM's.

[Angel Eyes]

does really matter ..damage is done

[dishuser]

does really matter ..damage is doneit does matter...to prevent further damage