DN $3500 demand

[goadus]

I received a letter this morning but did not sign for it. After reading this thread I wonder if I should have.

[mechanicman]

Damn!! really sorry to hear that...do some googling for additional info..other peoples cases may be different..
I received a letter this morning but did not sign for it. After reading this thread I wonder if I should have.

[rambojoe]

me new to this, but from what i've read,don't ignore this, it won't go away,only gets worse.no read on anyone beating the letter.

[dirtydcdn]

I am really curious on how they could ask for so much of a penalty. If you were to have purchased a subscription with all of the channels you would be no where near the price they are asking for. It would be like stealing a car worth a 1000 dollars and paying for a 100,000 dollar car to replace it. Would they not also have to have an itemized channel listing of what you watched in order to come to a damage total. Also what is to stop a person from using someones open internet access to use an iks system? The problem with IKS and traceability has always been the paper trail. I remember a site a long time ago that would sell pens to access there site... cannot remember for the life of me what fta site that was. If a seller sold a pen with "codes" to access a private site would that be a loophole? Would really like sodusme input on this one as he seems to really know his Sheet.

[Nostradamus]

I would say the problem with selling pens is that then you have the server guys with your address as well unless you forego the pen but you can sure there would be a lot of people complaining it they didn't get their pen :)

[alex70olds]

I am really curious on how they could ask for so much of a penalty. If you were to have purchased a subscription with all of the channels you would be no where near the price they are asking for. It would be like stealing a car worth a 1000 dollars and paying for a 100,000 dollar car to replace it. Would they not also have to have an itemized channel listing of what you watched in order to come to a damage total. Also what is to stop a person from using someones open internet access to use an iks system? The problem with IKS and traceability has always been the paper trail. I remember a site a long time ago that would sell pens to access there site... cannot remember for the life of me what fta site that was. If a seller sold a pen with "codes" to access a private site would that be a loophole? Would really like sodusme input on this one as he seems to really know his Sheet.

The pen site was f2a. Did not help Teckno in the least.

As far as damages, under the DMCA it is the plaintiffs choice to purse actual, or statutory. Echo has always elected statutory, which are the limits set by congress when the law was written. There are 2 levels of limits. One would be the enduser, and the other would be those that profit financially. You can not win, when they send you a letter it is because they got you.

[Anubis]

The pen site was f2a. Did not help Teckno in the least.

As far as damages, under the DMCA it is the plaintiffs choice to purse actual, or statutory. Echo has always elected statutory, which are the limits set by congress when the law was written. There are 2 levels of limits. One would be the enduser, and the other would be those that profit financially. You can not win, when they send you a letter it is because they got you.
So true and now we shall see 20 new posts with hypothetical "what if's" based on this direct to the point post you made alex!:tehe:

[dirtydcdn]

Do you guys see satellite tv even being around in 5-10 years? Sooner or later it will end up being an internet based television. It pretty much has now. With services like Netflix, your xbmc's, networks showing there shows on their websites... really makes you wonder why more people have not gone that way. I guess it comes down to the time and effort of learning to adjust with technology. One thing I love about going down to the States is that there are still video rental stores. You would also think that the networks would join together and offer the tv services free to the end user and make their money off of advertising.

[surfinisfun]

So true and now we shall see 20 new posts with hypothetical "what if's" based on this direct to the point post you made alex!:tehe:

I'll say 30 more hypothetical questions for $3,500 Alex.:tehe:

[1boxman]

So is Hijacking ok ??? or punishable ? ;)

[Anubis]

Do you guys see satellite tv even being around in 5-10 years? Sooner or later it will end up being an internet based television. It pretty much has now. With services like Netflix, your xbmc's, networks showing there shows on their websites... really makes you wonder why more people have not gone that way. I guess it comes down to the time and effort of learning to adjust with technology. One thing I love about going down to the States is that there are still video rental stores. You would also think that the networks would join together and offer the tv services free to the end user and make their money off of advertising.
Hmmm, I think I'll leave this one.:innocent:

[dirtydcdn]

Do not post on forums to ofter... forgot the etiquette. Sorry.

So is Hijacking ok ??? or punishable ? ;)

[surfinisfun]

Do not post on forums to ofter... forgot the etiquette. Sorry.

Not a big deal at this point.

This things been hijacked at least 52 times by now.lol

[JCO]

Not a big deal at this point.

This things been hijacked at least 52 times by now.lol

And a big congrats to Chicago on the big win... Ops wrong thread..
Now back to our regular programing and those nasty letters from Howe, Doowey, Doem, attorneys and ambulance chasers.

[sodusme]

I am really curious on how they could ask for so much of a penalty. If you were to have purchased a subscription with all of the channels you would be no where near the price they are asking for. It would be like stealing a car worth a 1000 dollars and paying for a 100,000 dollar car to replace it. Would they not also have to have an itemized channel listing of what you watched in order to come to a damage total. Also what is to stop a person from using someones open internet access to use an iks system? The problem with IKS and traceability has always been the paper trail. I remember a site a long time ago that would sell pens to access there site... cannot remember for the life of me what fta site that was. If a seller sold a pen with "codes" to access a private site would that be a loophole? Would really like sodusme input on this one as he seems to really know his Sheet.

I appreciate your confidence in me and I'll give you the best advice I can give and I've given it many times on these forums as its no secret I'm involved in some "shady" stuff. This is the motto I live by:

"Can this be traced back to me"?

If you ask yourself that before doing anything on the 'net and you can honestly answer "NO it cannot" than its probably pretty safe to engage in. If you answer "YES it can" then its not advisable to engage in it. Now when I say "pretty safe" I mean knowing your sh*t. Like knowing that you need an Elite Level 1 High Anonymous proxy or VPN to hide your i.p. and that a Transparent Level 3 one won't work. Like knowing that headers on an email can be traced, or that J/S can give up your i.p. and other info. on a website. You really have to know your stuff sometimes to be able to answer that intelligently.

If everyone online asked themselves that one little question before doing whatever it was they did they would be better off for it. :yes:

[rambojoe]

what happened in the wulf case,was these peeps computer not safe as in not traceable,or were they just ratted out?

[surfinisfun]

what happened in the wulf case,was these peeps computer not safe as in not traceable,or were they just rated out?

Hmmm, 35 pages here.

Lots of info in them there pages.

[rambojoe]

my bad,guess even untraceable computer can't shut big mouth up.answered my own question with your help, thanks surfinisfun.

[rambojoe]

another question you can ask yourself is, if i go iks,(which i don't recommend),will the reseller rat me out if he gets caught? I think they all will give in,causing more demand letters.But it's your choice.be safe.

[sodusme]

my bad,guess even untraceable computer can't shut big mouth up.answered my own question with your help, thanks surfinisfun.

Well you gotta figure you had a how shall I say "variable" in the equation that couldn't be calculated. That variable was Paypal.

Now you might have been able to trust Wuf I don't know the man or what records he kept or he kept them or anything else about the man. But I do know one thing Paypal will roll on you like a dog with fleas. See now if people doing this had asked themselves "Can this be traced back to me", they probably would have said "Yeah maybe through Paypal". Than that should have led you to do more investigation on how they handle subpoenas and their turning over of evidence.

Honestly and I'll probably get shot for saying this but I wouldn't necessarily lay all the blame at Wuf's feet. Paypal played a huge role in the evidence gathering on these cases. They turned over things that Wuf would not have had access to. Like i.p.'s used, transaction history and other crap.

[rambojoe]

would a person be able to sue PP for giving out personal info, like they did?

[hondoharry]

Honestly and I'll probably get shot for saying this but I wouldn't necessarily lay all the blame at Wuf's feet. Paypal played a huge role in the evidence gathering on these cases. They turned over things that Wuf would not have had access to. Like i.p.'s used, transaction history and other crap.

Correct. Wuf did not have access to any end user's real name and address needed to send out the letters. PayPal has no choice when faced with a court order. The responsible party for the letters is DN's signal security dept. that got their lawyers to get the court orders for PayPal to turn over the incriminating evidence.

[surfinisfun]

Well you gotta figure you had a how shall I say "variable" in the equation that couldn't be calculated. That variable was Paypal.

Now you might have been able to trust Wuf I don't know the man or what records he kept or he kept them or anything else about the man. But I do know one thing Paypal will roll on you like a dog with fleas. See now if people doing this had asked themselves "Can this be traced back to me", they probably would have said "Yeah maybe through Paypal". Than that should have led you to do more investigation on how they handle subpoenas and their turning over of evidence.

Honestly and I'll probably get shot for saying this but I wouldn't necessarily lay all the blame at Wuf's feet. Paypal played a huge role in the evidence gathering on these cases. They turned over things that Wuf would not have had access to. Like i.p.'s used, transaction history and other crap.

Oh for sure, we know pp will roll quicker than you can blink but....

Lets leave pp out for a minute and get back to wuff. He was an Smod here and being an x Smod from a very popular site i had access to ip's. Now every site is different when it comes to the level of privileges/powers but if he had that authority then, also if he was playing the end game, maybe he was keeping that info.

After all, how many sick excuses did he come up with during the last few months? Was that him, knowing the heat was coming collecting info available to him knowing it will get his ass out of the fire so as to turn over all the info needed to turn the big rat tail and run.

[sodusme]

would a person be able to sue PP for giving out personal info, like they did?

Not on your life. Their system is set up just like a bank 'cause that is essentially what they are. When you "do business" with them you are basically submitting to their "terms" which read pretty much like this: "We will turn over any and all information in the cooperation with law enforcement or an investigation". I'm paraphrasing there of course but you get the idea. Once you use their service you are saying you agree to be bound to their terms.


Oh for sure, we know pp will roll quicker than you can blink but....

Lets leave pp out for a minute and get back to wuff. He was an Smod here and being an x Smod from a very popular site i had access to ip's. Now every site is different when it comes to the level of privileges/powers but if he had that authority then, also if he was playing the end game, maybe he was keeping that info.

After all, how many sick excuses did he come up with during the last few months? Was that him, knowing the heat was coming collecting info available to him knowing it will get his ass out of the fire so as to turn over all the info needed to turn the big rat tail and run.

All I will say on that subject is that I would never have anyone on staff that was engaged in this type of activity. Now I'm not speaking against or condoning or admonishing what any site does as that is their own business. I'm only telling you how I would operate. Now of course its probably hard to keep tabs on people and what they are doing so that might be a little difficult. You would have to really be able to trust the people you have on staff.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I appreciate your confidence in me and I'll give you the best advice I can give and I've given it many times on these forums as its no secret I'm involved in some "shady" stuff. This is the motto I live by:

"Can this be traced back to me"?

If you ask yourself that before doing anything on the 'net and you can honestly answer "NO it cannot" than its probably pretty safe to engage in. If you answer "YES it can" then its not advisable to engage in it. Now when I say "pretty safe" I mean knowing your sh*t. Like knowing that you need an Elite Level 1 High Anonymous proxy or VPN to hide your i.p. and that a Transparent Level 3 one won't work. Like knowing that headers on an email can be traced, or that J/S can give up your i.p. and other info. on a website. You really have to know your stuff sometimes to be able to answer that intelligently.

If everyone online asked themselves that one little question before doing whatever it was they did they would be better off for it. :yes:



People are being traced through records of purchases they made when the seller gets raided or gets into legal problems and cooperates.


So purchasers first have to identify a seller is going to have/keep a record of their transaction even if they say they don't. Than they have to try to take steps so that their purchase can't be traced back to them. If they can't accomplish that than they should only go ahead knowing that there is a chance it could come back to bite them with being ok with that if it happens.




GS2

[surfinisfun]

All I will say on that subject is that I would never have anyone on staff that was engaged in this type of activity. Now I'm not speaking against or condoning or admonishing what any site does as that is their own business. I'm only telling you how I would operate. Now of course its probably hard to keep tabs on people and what they are doing so that might be a little difficult. You would have to really be able to trust the people you have on staff.

You bet sod, it may seem the guy is a good dude coming in but....no way can you be sure of character when it counts.

[hondoharry]

You bet sod, it may seem the guy is a good dude coming in but....no way can you be sure of character when it counts.

If DN came down on him with the PP evidence most people will cooperate with anything else they have to save their asses. It's common nature. He was probably feeding them evidence while continuing to sell because it looks like he cooperated.

[surfinisfun]

If DN came down on him with the PP evidence most people will cooperate with anything else they have to save their asses. It's common nature. He was probably feeding them evidence while continuing to sell because it looks like he cooperated.

That would be my bet.

[sodusme]

People are being traced through records of purchases they made when the seller gets raided or gets into legal problems and cooperates.


So purchasers first have to identify a seller is going to have/keep a record of their transaction even if they say they don't. Than they have to try to take steps so that their purchase can't be traced back to them. If they can't accomplish that than they should only go ahead knowing that there is a chance it could come back to bite them with being ok with that if it happens.




GS2

But if you take Paypal out of the equation there is still no "safe" way to get with a reseller. That is why people need to be asking "Can this be traced back to me"?

Lets say Paypal wasn't involved in this and Wuf still got popped 'cause he dealt with the wrong person. That is essentially how these guys are being taken down is they bring the wrong guy "into the fold" and its all down hill from there. So Paypal is not being used as a payment processor. You still need to get the funds from point A (the end user) to point B (the reseller). I cannot think of any acceptable way to do that which is not traceable. Western Union (traceable), Paypal (obviously traceable), Payza (traceable as far as I know), Pay95 (traceable as far as I know), Prepaid Visa/MC (traceable in that it would have to be mailed and now you are involving address's in the mix), hell even Bitcoins are traceable I'm hearing.

Short of doing a hand to hand transaction with you tossing a knapsack in a dumpster with the money for the codes and the reseller leaving your codes in a lunch sack on a park bench its all traceable. In other words the reseller is always going to have "records of transactions" unless its a hand to hand transaction and that is not possible. Once those records are gained they have you.

[sodusme]

Now the only thing I can think of is to make it damn difficult to prove anything changed hands. In other words if you are reselling you need to be encrypting your records with something like Blowfish. Even better keep them on a separate flashdrive or something that can be easily hidden if need be and encrypt that. Use only emails that purge after a while. Upload codes to a filehosting site located outside the U.S. and again one that purges information regularly. Encrypt the file of the codes you upload also. Use a VPN in all dealings with customers and have customers use a VPN again from outside the U.S.

Once you enter another entity (payment processor) into the mix you are basically screwed. As you cannot control what info. they gather or how they use that info.

[hondoharry]

I've always wondered how the resellers safely pay the server providers. That paper trail seems to be pretty secure so far.

[rambojoe]

and what if a reseller sell to DN rep.don't look like they would'nt know till it's to late.If the reseller is in U.S.look out,or maybe even out of.

[dishuser]

and what if a reseller sell to DN rep.don't look like they would'nt know till it's to late.If the reseller is in U.S.look out,or maybe even out of.

have you read any of this thread?lol

[JCO]

another question you can ask yourself is, if i go iks,(which i don't recommend),will the reseller rat me out if he gets caught? I think they all will give in,causing more demand letters.But it's your choice.be safe.

We all know of at least one reseller that bit the bullet and didnt rat out on anyone.. ( BPG) There are people that still have ethics and morals and wont bring eveyone down if they get popped..

[rambojoe]

have you read any of this thread?lol

sorry, must have missed it,guess that they have and haven't. thanks dishuser and JCO.

[sodusme]

We all know of at least one reseller that bit the bullet and didnt rat out on anyone.. ( BPG) There are people that still have ethics and morals and wont bring eveyone down if they get popped..

Exactly and I have wondered did BPG have his info. encrypted? OR was the info. "gone" (think deleted) before anyone got to it? LOL

Maybe this is something he doesn't want to discuss in the open but if you take care of the customer there is no reason to bring down everyone with you. That is why I would advocate using some type of strong encryption on your HDD involving any kind of customer records. Lets face it the penalties are going to be more severe if they can prove you sold to a 100 customers instead of just 1. So it benefits you as a seller to keep sh*t encrypted and away from prying eyes OR delete it all together and wipe the HDD.

[hondoharry]

Exactly and I have wondered did BPG have his info. encrypted? OR was the info. "gone" (think deleted) before anyone got to it? LOL

Maybe this is something he doesn't want to discuss in the open but if you take care of the customer there is no reason to bring down everyone with you. That is why I would advocate using some type of strong encryption on your HDD involving any kind of customer records. Lets face it the penalties are going to be more severe if they can prove you sold to a 100 customers instead of just 1. So it benefits you as a seller to keep sh*t encrypted and away from prying eyes OR delete it all together and wipe the HDD.

DN: OK Mr. Reseller, we got all your and your customers personal info including bank accts. You have two choices. Cooperate with us with end user evidence and testimony and you can keep your ill begotten gains. Don't cooperate and we'll make you and your family penniless.

Mr. Reseller: (They got me by the balls)

[sodusme]

DN: OK Mr. Reseller, we got all your and your customers personal info including bank accts. You have two choices. Cooperate with us with end user evidence and testimony and you can keep your ill begotten gains. Don't cooperate and we'll make you and your family penniless.

Mr. Reseller: (They got me by the balls)

And that is where Paypal comes into play. Without a payment processor to subpoena they would not be able to prove that you had any customers at all. Say you sell to an undercover mole here on the forums. He gets you popped. You had him send the money via Paypal. Well of course they are going to assume that all your other transactions were via Paypal as well. Then all they simply need to do is go to Paypal and get record of all your transactions.

Now if you sell to a mole here on the forums and you have them send you a payment (that has yet to be determined) that cannot come back on you if subpoenaed then there is little proof that you had an "empire" going. So the key is to get payment that cannot be traced back to you OR forced to turn over records in a subpoena.

That is why I say short of a hand to hand transaction there is nothing that will work that I can think of. Now Liberty Reserve looks pretty good:


http://mypaymentprocessors.blogspot.com/p/liberty-reserve.html

But IMHO making the payment processing "anonymous" is the major problem. If you can do that you have half the system beat. The other half of course is to get the codes to a customer without revealing information.

[Hannibalector]

DN: OK Mr. Reseller, we got all your and your customers personal info including bank accts. You have two choices. Cooperate with us with end user evidence and testimony and you can keep your ill begotten gains. Don't cooperate and we'll make you and your family penniless.

Mr. Reseller: (They got me by the balls)

some people wonder why I call that extortion

[Russ]

Don't buy a code its dangerous, cause you $3500 for charlie I think if you live in canada its ok but in US i think buy beaverly

[hondoharry]

some people wonder why I call that extortion

Others call it crime doesn't pay.

[Nostradamus]

Others call it crime doesn't pay.

actually Harry it pays well for those not getting caught, but for those that do get caught ... well then they pay well :)

[Grave Digger]

Don't buy a code its dangerous, cause you $3500 for charlie I think if you live in canada its ok but in US i think buy beaverly

you cant view beverley in the states so buying a code would be pointless

unless you are in the extreme north near the border

[sodusme]

you cant view beverley in the states so buying a code would be pointless

unless you are in the extreme north near the border

Like say Michigan? ;)

[nitrogabby]

Ok, I have been quiet untill everything got settled, so here goes. I recieved a letter,thanks to wuff, I sent them the money and a letter that stated that if they cashed my check that all previous wrong doings before my dated check would be overlooked and that no civil,crimminal, or monitary actions could be taken against me. And they accepted and cashed my check. I would suggest that anyone paying them send a like wise letter to keep out of trouble down the road if they find something else. (like another donation from someone else) Also there was nothing about pay pal, all info was against me from his computer.

[Anubis]

Ok, I have been quiet untill everything got settled, so here goes. I recieved a letter,thanks to wuff, I sent them the money and a letter that stated that if they cashed my check that all previous wrong doings before my dated check would be overlooked and that no civil,crimminal, or monitary actions could be taken against me. And they accepted and cashed my check. I would suggest that anyone paying them send a like wise letter to keep out of trouble down the road if they find something else. (like another donation from someone else) Also there was nothing about pay pal, all info was against me from his computer.
Did they not request something from you in the form of writing that you would not participate in piracy, etc.? I thought they requested something to that effect.

[nitrogabby]

Yes they did they want you to write a letter stating that you will not buy anything to pirate their signals. I just added my paragraph in there to protect myself.

[sodusme]

Yes they did they want you to write a letter stating that you will not buy anything to pirate their signals. I just added my paragraph in there to protect myself.

That's smart thinking.

Kind of like the 'ole "payment in full" that you used to write on a check. Cash the check and consider yourself "paid in full". Very smart thinking my friend.

[steveOtoo]

Ok, I have been quiet untill everything got settled, so here goes. I recieved a letter,thanks to wuff, I sent them the money and a letter that stated that if they cashed my check that all previous wrong doings before my dated check would be overlooked and that no civil,crimminal, or monitary actions could be taken against me. And they accepted and cashed my check. I would suggest that anyone paying them send a like wise letter to keep out of trouble down the road if they find something else. (like another donation from someone else) Also there was nothing about pay pal, all info was against me from his computer.I honestly don't think paypal turned over any information. All they really would need to do is put pressure on Wuf to turn over his personal statements from paypal.

[Hannibalector]

Ok, I have been quiet untill everything got settled, so here goes. I recieved a letter,thanks to wuff, I sent them the money and a letter that stated that if they cashed my check that all previous wrong doings before my dated check would be overlooked and that no civil,crimminal, or monitary actions could be taken against me. And they accepted and cashed my check. I would suggest that anyone paying them send a like wise letter to keep out of trouble down the road if they find something else. (like another donation from someone else) Also there was nothing about pay pal, all info was against me from his computer.

just goes to show it's all about the money and the ambulance chasing and less about securing the signal, good on you for having a head on your shoulders on the matter. thanks for the post

[lilyhammer]

All the DN end user lawsuits have been in the US so far? Wonder if they have grounds to go after people in Canada?

[hondoharry]

Also there was nothing about pay pal, all info was against me from his computer.

Duh, of course they got info. from PayPal. In a normal transaction Wuf would have nothing on his computer about your real name and address to send the letter unless you gave it to him voluntarily.

[sodusme]

I honestly don't think paypal turned over any information. All they really would need to do is put pressure on Wuf to turn over his personal statements from paypal.

You don't get personal statements from Paypal. All you get is an "online" statement but that doesn't show i.p. address's of the people sending money, nor their transactions, nor their address, nor anything else about them. Also i.p. address's would not have been something on Wuf's computer.

Paypal most definitely rolled and gave up information on the transactions.

[Anubis]

You don't get personal statements from Paypal. All you get is an "online" statement but that doesn't show i.p. address's of the people sending money, nor their transactions, nor their address, nor anything else about them. Also i.p. address's would not have been something on Wuf's computer.

Paypal most definitely rolled and gave up information on the transactions.

Don't think it was a matter of them "rolling" but the fact that they were most likely handed a warrant to produce information. JMO

[jeldf]

This post is going round and round and round lol. We all know PP is owned by fleabay (even though they allow the sale of FTA boxes) but fleabay would roll at the drop of a dime under pressure from DN and hence, PP. I would think it may be Dixon's bank account or the fact he kept a record of users on his PC. Be a whole lot cheaper than going after PP. IMHO

[nitrogabby]

As I stated before, PP was never involved in my case. Wuff computer is what they are using ,they had named this web site as place of contact, my handle here, and my email address, and the codes that were purchased by me. Nothing about PP was ever mentioned. hope this helps someone.

[dishuser]

As I stated before, PP was never involved in my case. Wuff computer is what they are using ,they had named this web site as place of contact, my handle here, and my email address, and the codes that were purchased by me. Nothing about PP was ever mentioned. hope this helps someone.
then how did they get your real name and address??

[nitrogabby]

They got that info from Wuff computer. He wanted an email address to send things to. I had presumed that they got info from tracking email address. I don't know for sure, all I know is that there was no mention of anything about PP on my paper work I recieved from lawyer.

[dishuser]

They got that info from Wuff computer. He wanted an email address to send things to. I had presumed that they got info from tracking email address. I don't know for sure, all I know is that there was no mention of anything about PP on my paper work I recieved from lawyer.

from an email addy?
paypal gave up your info

[wermont]

Today I have heard from somebody close to me, that somehow, by pure coincidence I assure you, that person is now a proud recipient of a copy of this long debated $3,500 letter. As nitrogabby states above, the only information shown as proof on the third page after all the legalese is the DES (not unique), the email address used with PP, the alleged screen name on this forum prior to 9/2012, the not yet court established illegal codes, server DNS name, port used and IP address, and a field named Report that I believe identifies the source of the information (such as "Leo nfps 12210.rtf" and "NFPS website port 10510.rtf"). There was no mention of Dixon or Wuffman names in the letter. However, records show that Wuffman was already in bed with DN since allegedly the transaction was done long before his “official” roll-over date of 7/2012 shown somewhere in this thread. The reseller "ASKED" specifically for an email address to send the information after repeated PM’s requests directed to him in this forum. The email given to Wuffman is not the one used for PP. So far most of the proof shown comes from Wuffman's records although I am positive that PP got involved since the exactly misspelled mailing address was used to send the certified letter along with PP linked email address. It is an eye opener for me as I ponder an answer to sodusme's question related to Internet activity tracking. That person close to me now has 29 days to find a way out of this mess or make a contribution to those who perpetuate this SCAM in their quest to quench their greed.

IMPORTANT NOTE: You have to understand that the plaintiff is trying to create a precedent in one and/or all districts before unleashing a widespread action based on the info gained from Wuffman and possibly others like him. There have been speculations regarding some of the cases dismissed before going in front of a judge. My friend can confirm that in at least 2 cases a settlement agreement was reached between the plaintiff and the defendant prior to stepping into the courtroom. In each case an undisclosed amount of money was paid by the defendant and the case was dismissed with all parties being responsible for their own lawyer fees. No defendant to date had the case dismissed because the plaintiff realized that due to lack of sufficient factual evidence they stand a good chance of losing their case, thus creating a precedent in our favor. Settlements and defaults do not create precedents. One or more clear cut cases with one party winning will eventually create that precedent. Currently the plaintiff is doing a very finely tuned balancing act, carefully attempting to create a precedent in their favor, while collecting any amount of money from everyone involved. So far this strategy worked for the plaintiff as they clearly avoided creating a precedent in defendant’s favor while milking as much money as possible. Adopting a tougher stance, such as dragging everyone into court and trying to obtain a minimum of 10k judgment or more, not only will lead to having to deal with collection efforts thereafter, but it could actually prompt one or more defendants to spend the time and the money required to create that precedent in favor of future defendants.

After reading all the posts in this thread and coroborating with answers from four qualified attorneys I can offer this simple advice. Analyze carefully your posting activity, the content of email and PM exchanges, the payment method, and your current social and financial situation. Understand that the only link between your forum nickname, Wuffman and you as a physical person is the PP transaction or any other traceable financial delivery method. In my opinion this should be the key factor to your decision. Based on your own analysis and confirmation from at least one legal counsel proceed in dealing with the issue at hand. If you truly have not involved yourself in such alleged activities take it to the court and then proceed from there in order to collect from plaintiff , if possible, paid attorney fee after winning your case. If you truly have nothing to lose financially and/or socially then do nothing about it. If, on the other hand you stand to place in hardship your family then give the money away and be done.

People, TV is no longer what it used to be and in all honesty it has been probably more than 6 months since I personally watched TV. Lately, I find that life offers other venues to truly enrich and stimulate one's brain. The garbage we all watch only dumbs us down and makes us slaves to those who cannot otherwise justify their position as elite without having someone to look down upon. The only way this witch hunt will ever end is by us, collectively, coming to the conclusion that we have better things to do with our lives other than watching over and over commercials, shows, movies, and any other TV programming that has mostly negativity build in and very little value. Just stop watching TV, stop paying subscriptions, just STOP empowering the elite. Our need to socialize as human beings is what drives us to watch TV, pay the phone bill, the Internet subscription without realizing that all these once beneficial venues are now slowly contributing to our very own demise as a society. I also gave up for some time now on GPS assistance as I can confirm that using GPS services reduced my capacity to retain information and orient myself in the world. I did not need this crap before when I was younger and I do not need this now for sure. Our choices make us who we are. I hope you make your choice and start moving in the right direction. Good luck.

[sodusme]

They got that info from Wuff computer. He wanted an email address to send things to. I had presumed that they got info from tracking email address. I don't know for sure, all I know is that there was no mention of anything about PP on my paper work I recieved from lawyer.

Actually there is no way to trace an email back to a persons name and address. They got it from Paypal without a doubt.

[sodusme]

I find it utterly amazing that someone would keep detailed records outlining the illegal activity they were engaged in and even name the file exactly what it pertained to: nfps 12210.rtf, not bothering to encrypt it or even name it something innocent.

I hate to say it but that takes a special kind of stupid. :out:

[Grave Digger]

I find it utterly amazing that someone would keep detailed records outlining the illegal activity they were engaged in and even name the file exactly what it pertained to: nfps 12210.rtf, not bothering to encrypt it or even name it something innocent.

I hate to say it but that takes a special kind of stupid. :out:


sod, i am saying this with all due respect, but quit your damn speculating and assumptions,

you have no idea if he used encryption or not, so stop assuming he did not,

they could break any encryption he was using, however chances are he gave up all this info willingly, so an encryption wouldn't matter a damn anyway

[goadus]

I too wonder why the hell someone would keep records on iks stuff when it is what it is in dn's eyes.

[lilyhammer]

I too wonder why the hell someone would keep records on iks stuff when it is what it is in dn's eyes.

It's pretty simple why they would do this. It's their bargaining chip in case they get caught. They rat out other people to reduce their punishment in exchange for the records. It's a win-win situation for the seller and DN.

[sodusme]

sod, i am saying this with all due respect, but quit your damn speculating and assumptions,

you have no idea if he used encryption or not, so stop assuming he did not,

they could break any encryption he was using, however chances are he gave up all this info willingly, so an encryption wouldn't matter a damn anyway

With all due "respect" why is it that you find the need to contradict everything I say on here? If you can prove that ANY encryption can be beat than post it up. That is all I'm asking. Until that time its just idle b.s. chatter and arguing on your part.

What is it with you having a hard on for me? Do you not like me? Frankly I don't give a rats *ss if you do or not but I'm sure everyone here is tired of reading your little bickering match with me.

Furthermore you have no idea what I do. I'm a security professional specializing in website circumvention. I make it a habit to keep up on technology and this type of stuff and what has been broken and what has not regarding encryption. This isn't some little cat and mouse IKS game for me like it might be for you. Its my life as its what I do every day of my life.

If you're trying to simply "disagree" with me than take the edge of your posts and stop swearing and demanding that I don't "speculate or assume" and telling me what I know and what I don't know. That p*sses me off quite frankly and is a good way to get on my bad side. If you wish to question me on how I know certain encryption CANNOT be broken than simply ask me. I'll be happy to post up why I have posted my view on it and you are in turn more than welcome to post up YOUR side of why you feel it can. I will be posting examples as I have in the past and you would be expected to do the same. Until that time I'll ask you to start backing up your posts with some proof or I'll have no other choice but to view it as argumentative and deal with it accordingly.

If you'd like to discuss encryption start up a thread on it as I'm sure management is tired of this back and forth with you and me.

[sodusme]

sod, i am saying this with all due respect, but quit your damn speculating and assumptions,

you have no idea if he used encryption or not, so stop assuming he did not,

they could break any encryption he was using, however chances are he gave up all this info willingly, so an encryption wouldn't matter a damn anyway

Here I'll be happy to discuss this further with you here:

http://www.satfix.net/showthread.php?137928-How-to-hide-passwords-even-the-FBI-cannot-get-into&p=978302#post978302

[jeldf]

With all due "respect" why is it that you find the need to contradict everything I say on here? If you can prove that ANY encryption can be beat than post it up. That is all I'm asking. Until that time its just idle b.s. chatter and arguing on your part.

What is it with you having a hard on for me? Do you not like me? Frankly I don't give a rats *ss if you do or not but I'm sure everyone here is tired of reading your little bickering match with me.

Furthermore you have no idea what I do. I'm a security professional specializing in website circumvention. I make it a habit to keep up on technology and this type of stuff and what has been broken and what has not regarding encryption. This isn't some little cat and mouse IKS game for me like it might be for you. Its my life as its what I do every day of my life.

If you're trying to simply "disagree" with me than take the edge of your posts and stop swearing and demanding that I don't "speculate or assume" and telling me what I know and what I don't know. That p*sses me off quite frankly and is a good way to get on my bad side. If you wish to question me on how I know certain encryption CANNOT be broken than simply ask me. I'll be happy to post up why I have posted my view on it and you are in turn more than welcome to post up YOUR side of why you feel it can. I will be posting examples as I have in the past and you would be expected to do the same. Until that time I'll ask you to start backing up your posts with some proof or I'll have no other choice but to view it as argumentative and deal with it accordingly.

If you'd like to discuss encryption start up a thread on it as I'm sure management is tired of this back and forth with you and me.

This is a forum where everyone gets to state their opinion. It's about discussion. With all due respect Grave Digger, you seem to only stop in and speak your 'gospel' pay, pay, pay and you can't beat them. We get it! How much $$ do you get for every nic that says they will just pay?

[bigbird]

sod, i am saying this with all due respect, but quit your damn speculating and assumptions,

you have no idea if he used encryption or not, so stop assuming he did not,

they could break any encryption he was using, however chances are he gave up all this info willingly, so an encryption wouldn't matter a damn anyway

It's a RTF file. You think thats encrypted? Also SOD PGP encryption may not be hacked, but there is decryption software all over the net. Just pointing it out. Not disagreeing with you.

bigbird

[sodusme]

It's a RTF file. You think thats encrypted? Also SOD PGP encryption may not be hacked, but there is decryption software all over the net. Just pointing it out. Not disagreeing with you.

bigbird

Yeah I saw that software it runs about $300 I think? That is if you are referring to Elcomsofts software? I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me but its the "tone" they use. You have been respectful in your questioning of "Hey isn't there software that can break that"? This is how we learn about things. And the short answer is YES if you are complacent and lazy as this article says. Otherwise it essentially is not broken. Unless there is something I haven't seen on this and again that is how we learn. I don't know everything and I'm open to being corrected. What I'm not open to is Grave Digger constantly telling me "You don't know what you're talking about" without posting anything to back it up.

From what I'm reading you need to have certain criteria present to be able to retrieve the password.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/20/elcomsoft_tool_decrypts_pgp/


in the right conditions, can be circumvented thanks to human laziness:


As a result, keys used to encrypt and decrypt data that’s being written or read from protected volumes are kept readily accessible in the computer’s operating memory.


Encrypted drives must be mounted at the time a memory dump is taken or else the process will fail to work. For this and other reasons, considerable skill and some luck is needed to use the tool properly.

Now I'm sure this is info. that the Feds and DN/Nagra or whoever else would have a vested interest in knowing whats on your HDD would rather doesn't get out but its public information.

[jeldf]

Yeah I saw that software it runs about $300 I think? That is if you are referring to Elcomsofts software? I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me but its the "tone" they use. You have been respectful in your questioning of "Hey isn't there software that can break that"? This is how we learn about things. And the short answer is YES if you are complacent and lazy as this article says. Otherwise it essentially is not broken. Unless there is something I haven't seen on this and again that is how we learn. I don't know everything and I'm open to being corrected. What I'm not open to is Grave Digger constantly telling me "You don't know what you're talking about" without posting anything to back it up.

From what I'm reading you need to have certain criteria present to be able to retrieve the password.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/20/elcomsoft_tool_decrypts_pgp/







Now I'm sure this is info. that the Feds and DN/Nagra or whoever else would have a vested interest in knowing whats on your HDD would rather doesn't get out but its public information.

Is there not software you can install that will wipe your drive at the click of a mouse? There are people doing more devious things then selling IKS and I'm sure they have their backs covered. I can wipe my phone remotely.........

[sodusme]

Is there not software you can install that will wipe your drive at the click of a mouse? There are people doing more devious things then selling IKS and I'm sure they have their backs covered. I can wipe my phone remotely.........

There is its known as a D.O.D (Department Of Defense) wipe. You can wipe a HDD with 0's and 1's repeatedly and effectively destroy any contents of the HDD. I should clarify that in that it destroys information you have deleted. To understand how this works think about this: When you "delete" something from a HDD where does it go? Its not like you can physically take that piece of information out of the computer and throw it away. Therefore it remains in the computer. What happens is when you 'delete" something you simply move that block of information to another area in the computer that is "free" (or has no information written to it) until which time that area is overwritten with new data or written to with a wipe of some kind. But that leaves that information retrievable. Like I said until which time the HDD becomes so full that new information is written over that chunk or you intentionally write to that "free" space area with 0's and 1's destroying that data.

That's also why when you reformat a computer you cannot retrieve any information from it since the HDD has been written to with a random combination of 0's and 1's. There is a particularly interesting wipe called a Gutmann which is a 35 pass wipe. In other words it will write a random combination of 0's and 1's to the free space on a HDD 35 times. That will destroy virtually anything on that HDD that might have been retrievable.

Now there are mixed reviews on recovering deleted data after a Gutmann wipe but the D.O.D requires a 7 pass and Gutmanns is a 35 pass. So I'll leave it up to you if you think the Feds or DN/Nagra can recover data after that many passes. Now I should emphasize that SOME data can be retrieved but to retrieve it all is not possible.

[jeldf]

There is its known as a D.O.D (Department Of Defense) wipe. You can wipe a HDD with 0's and 1's repeatedly and effectively destroy any contents of the HDD. I should clarify that in that it destroys information you have deleted. To understand how this works think about this: When you "delete" something from a HDD where does it go? Its not like you can physically take that piece of information out of the computer and throw it away. Therefore it remains in the computer. What happens is when you 'delete" something you simply move that block of information to another area in the computer that is "free" (or has no information written to it) until which time that area is overwritten with new data or written to with a wipe of some kind. But that leaves that information retrievable. Like I said until which time the HDD becomes so full that new information is written over that chunk or you intentionally write to that "free" space area with 0's and 1's destroying that data.

That's also why when you reformat a computer you cannot retrieve any information from it since the HDD has been written to with a random combination of 0's and 1's. There is a particularly interesting wipe called a Gutmann which is a 35 pass wipe. In other words it will write a random combination of 0's and 1's to the free space on a HDD 35 times. That will destroy virtually anything on that HDD that might have been retrievable.

Now there are mixed reviews on recovering deleted data after a Gutmann wipe but the D.O.D requires a 7 pass and Gutmanns is a 35 pass. So I'll leave it up to you if you think the Feds or DN/Nagra can recover data after that many passes. Now I should emphasize that SOME data can be retrieved but to retrieve it all is not possible.

Would it not cost a lot of $$ to try and get SOME of that data? So I would assume you, like me has a 'kill' system on your PC

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

There is its known as a D.O.D (Department Of Defense) wipe. You can wipe a HDD with 0's and 1's repeatedly and effectively destroy any contents of the HDD. I should clarify that in that it destroys information you have deleted. To understand how this works think about this: When you "delete" something from a HDD where does it go? Its not like you can physically take that piece of information out of the computer and throw it away. Therefore it remains in the computer. What happens is when you 'delete" something you simply move that block of information to another area in the computer that is "free" (or has no information written to it) until which time that area is overwritten with new data or written to with a wipe of some kind. But that leaves that information retrievable. Like I said until which time the HDD becomes so full that new information is written over that chunk or you intentionally write to that "free" space area with 0's and 1's destroying that data.

That's also why when you reformat a computer you cannot retrieve any information from it since the HDD has been written to with a random combination of 0's and 1's. There is a particularly interesting wipe called a Gutmann which is a 35 pass wipe. In other words it will write a random combination of 0's and 1's to the free space on a HDD 35 times. That will destroy virtually anything on that HDD that might have been retrievable.

Now there are mixed reviews on recovering deleted data after a Gutmann wipe but the D.O.D requires a 7 pass and Gutmanns is a 35 pass. So I'll leave it up to you if you think the Feds or DN/Nagra can recover data after that many passes. Now I should emphasize that SOME data can be retrieved but to retrieve it all is not possible.



The provider has been able to get Anton Pillar orders in Canada and orders in the US on a regular basis based on them alleging the defendants will destroy evidence if hit with a regular lawsuit. There has been several past incidents of this happening that they cite in their application for an order. They even use online posts from potential defendants who say something about wiping/destroying evidence.


When they apply for this orders its without the defendants knowing. The courts grant seizure order at a time and location(s) unbeknown to the defendants. Defendants are probably always got off guard. Defendants don't prepare for an unexpected visit with a setup that would allow them to destroy things when the unexpected knock on the door happens usually at more than one location at the same time.


It might happen one day but end users should realize that they should not depend on their information being secured or destroyed in my opinion.



GS2

[hotdog2]

Is there not software you can install that will wipe your drive at the click of a mouse? There are people doing more devious things then selling IKS and I'm sure they have their backs covered. I can wipe my phone remotely.........

Blancco

xxx.blancco.com/en/home/

[sodusme]

The provider has been able to get Anton Pillar orders in Canada and orders in the US on a regular basis based on them alleging the defendants will destroy evidence if hit with a regular lawsuit. There has been several past incidents of this happening that they cite in their application for an order. They even use online posts from potential defendants who say something about wiping/destroying evidence.


When they apply for this orders its without the defendants knowing. The courts grant seizure order at a time and location(s) unbeknown to the defendants. Defendants are probably always got off guard. Defendants don't prepare for an unexpected visit with a setup that would allow them to destroy things when the unexpected knock on the door happens usually at more than one location at the same time.


It might happen one day but end users should realize that they should not depend on their information being secured or destroyed in my opinion.



GS2

Yes that is exactly why I say prepare instead of despair. Its easier to hide it from the start going forward instead of trying to scramble around after the fact when there is a knock on the door. Your best criminals have nothing to find from the start so a knock on the door is no big deal. ;)

[surfinisfun]

Yes that is exactly why I say prepare instead of despair. Its easier to hide it from the start going forward instead of trying to scramble around after the fact when there is a knock on the door. Your best criminals have nothing to find from the start so a knock on the door is no big deal. ;)

Couldn't agree more bud, i'm pretty sure i still have a 1/2 pound of (what was good in those days ) pot in a house i was selling from.

All jokes aside, if you were a pot smoker and recognize the positives of paranoia chances are you are doing a better job as a reseller.

Now, if you have my weed.....ahhh, enjoy.

[ChillyWilly]

There is its known as a D.O.D (Department Of Defense) wipe. You can wipe a HDD with 0's and 1's repeatedly and effectively destroy any contents of the HDD. I should clarify that in that it destroys information you have deleted. To understand how this works think about this: When you "delete" something from a HDD where does it go? Its not like you can physically take that piece of information out of the computer and throw it away. Therefore it remains in the computer. What happens is when you 'delete" something you simply move that block of information to another area in the computer that is "free" (or has no information written to it) until which time that area is overwritten with new data or written to with a wipe of some kind. But that leaves that information retrievable. Like I said until which time the HDD becomes so full that new information is written over that chunk or you intentionally write to that "free" space area with 0's and 1's destroying that data.

That's also why when you reformat a computer you cannot retrieve any information from it since the HDD has been written to with a random combination of 0's and 1's. There is a particularly interesting wipe called a Gutmann which is a 35 pass wipe. In other words it will write a random combination of 0's and 1's to the free space on a HDD 35 times. That will destroy virtually anything on that HDD that might have been retrievable.

Now there are mixed reviews on recovering deleted data after a Gutmann wipe but the D.O.D requires a 7 pass and Gutmanns is a 35 pass. So I'll leave it up to you if you think the Feds or DN/Nagra can recover data after that many passes. Now I should emphasize that SOME data can be retrieved but to retrieve it all is not possible.

IMHO 1 wipe would probably suffice. Obviously there are forensic softwares that can examine a disk. These softwares look for "ghost traces" on each byte, tries to determine if that byte was previously a 1 or a 0, then outputs a file. This file will have many errors, pictures will have pixelization etc. However, it is still a useful tool. Consider the scenario where terrorists have imported a nuclear device..The authorities just need to find it.....and have seized a hard drive.....they don't care about a few errors, as long as they get a lead as to where to find the bad guys. However a court case is an entirely different animal. It is doubtful that such evidence would ever be admitted. This is because it would not be actual evidence, but "manufactured evidence", the output of a third party software.....

[Extintor]

house stinks good!!

[Extintor]

Couldn't agree more bud, i'm pretty sure i still have a 1/2 pound of (what was good in those days ) pot in a house i was selling from.

All jokes aside, if you were a pot smoker and recognize the positives of paranoia chances are you are doing a better job as a reseller.

Now, if you have my weed.....ahhh, enjoy.

house stinks good !!

[surfinisfun]

house stinks good !!

lol. Enjoy bud,

My point of course is, if you were or are a reseller in this game you best be as paranoid as someone toking up daily, hopefully smarter too.

[zelig]

analyze this

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/910013/thumbs/o-ADAM-LANZA-HARD-DRIVE-facebook.jpg

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Yes that is exactly why I say prepare instead of despair. Its easier to hide it from the start going forward instead of trying to scramble around after the fact when there is a knock on the door. Your best criminals have nothing to find from the start so a knock on the door is no big deal. ;)


In reality I don't think its going to happen. End users should not rely on that to happen. Sat people don't even see it as criminal.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

IMHO 1 wipe would probably suffice. Obviously there are forensic softwares that can examine a disk. These softwares look for "ghost traces" on each byte, tries to determine if that byte was previously a 1 or a 0, then outputs a file. This file will have many errors, pictures will have pixelization etc. However, it is still a useful tool. Consider the scenario where terrorists have imported a nuclear device..The authorities just need to find it.....and have seized a hard drive.....they don't care about a few errors, as long as they get a lead as to where to find the bad guys. However a court case is an entirely different animal. It is doubtful that such evidence would ever be admitted. This is because it would not be actual evidence, but "manufactured evidence", the output of a third party software.....


If you wipe a Hard drive and it can be determined that it was wiped that usually works against a defendant with allegations it was wiped to rid of damaging evidence.



GS2

[dishuser]

If you wipe a Hard drive and it can be determined that it was wiped that usually works against a defendant with allegations it was wiped to rid of damaging evidence.



GS2prove there was something illegal on it is all the defendant needs to say
we're talking personal pc's not servers here

[Hannibalector]

The provider has been able to get Anton Pillar orders in Canada and orders in the US on a regular basis based on them alleging the defendants will destroy evidence if hit with a regular lawsuit. There has been several past incidents of this happening that they cite in their application for an order. They even use online posts from potential defendants who say something about wiping/destroying evidence.


When they apply for this orders its without the defendants knowing. The courts grant seizure order at a time and location(s) unbeknown to the defendants. Defendants are probably always got off guard. Defendants don't prepare for an unexpected visit with a setup that would allow them to destroy things when the unexpected knock on the door happens usually at more than one location at the same time.


It might happen one day but end users should realize that they should not depend on their information being secured or destroyed in my opinion.



GS2

light switch to an electro magnet followed by a photocell ?

[Hannibalector]

In reality I don't think its going to happen. End users should not rely on that to happen. Sat people don't even see it as criminal.



GS2

I think you need to pay attention to your site and the ramblings going on there before you venture out here

[Hannibalector]

the allegations of cookies left at this site and elsewhere along with the fact there was in fact a mod here as a re seller selling before and after this site went down only speaks to co operation, that fact alone should cause concern

lets not forget the pm's to who they thought was a reseller

Hanni waves to the sh*tshow

[sodusme]

In reality I don't think its going to happen. End users should not rely on that to happen. Sat people don't even see it as criminal.



GS2

Oh definitely and my posts on "proper security" are directed more towards those that are reselling. I absolutely do not want to lull the masses into a false sense of security here and to think that their friendly reseller is following 'ole Sods advice.

But if you are reselling for the love of God follow some of the advice in this thread and do yourself and your clients a favor, encrypt, encrypt and encrypt some more.

[Hannibalector]

if you can't trust wufman who can you trust ?

[Hannibalector]

Oh definitely and my posts on "proper security" are directed more towards those that are reselling. I absolutely do not want to lull the masses into a false sense of security here and to think that their friendly reseller is following 'ole Sods advise.

But if you are reselling for the love of God follow some of the advice in this thread and do yourself and your clients a favor, encrypt, encrypt and encrypt some more.


jj doesnt get this far up this sites xxxxxxx without going all the way

[dishuser]

jj doesnt get this far up this sites ass without going all the way

he didn't go up this site's xxxxxxx you twit
so stop your shat now with blaming this site

[Hannibalector]

the only sheep in this shi*show were the ones that were lead by those that lead them to the slaughter

[Hannibalector]

he didn't go up this site's ass you twit
so stop your shat now with blaming this site

I think this site gave him mod status did they not ?

did you see the list of sites he was mod at ? most gone now

[dishuser]

I think this site gave him mod status did they not ?

did you see the list of sites he was mod at ? most gone now
no they're not
you must be MU'd from them to think they're gone...lol
I read the doc but apparently you skimmed thru it

[Hannibalector]

he didn't go up this site's ass you twit
so stop your shat now with blaming this site

you want everyone to believe he only got to 1st base DU, do you honestly think Thomas Dixon was allowed to proceed and give evidence or do you think JJ had his boys act on behalf of Mr Dixon ?

[Hannibalector]

no they're not
you must be MU'd from them to think they're gone...lol
I read the doc but apparently you skimmed thru it


keep lying

[ChillyWilly]

jj doesnt get this far up this sites ass without going all the way

There is no evidence that happened. However imho it would be foolish to assume it hasn't happened. But what we are talking about is a mod or administrator, here or else where, being on the Dixon list, and then being flipped by DN.

That would really pose no additional risk to the casual end user. We have always known these sites are being monitored, so the biggest risk to an end user is his own posts.

However, there may be a risk to those involved with iks servers. IMHO any one who was "flipped" would be instructed to concentrate their efforts to identify these people. To that end, all it would take is an email addy that was assigned by an isp.........And it's no secret that there are gossip type emails circulating between staff at various sites, not to mention freebee boxes shipped to some. Of course the answers to this issue are obvious, stay anonymous and do NOT compromise others.........

[hotdog2]

Oh definitely and my posts on "proper security" are directed more towards those that are reselling. I absolutely do not want to lull the masses into a false sense of security here and to think that their friendly reseller is following 'ole Sods advice.

But if you are reselling for the love of God follow some of the advice in this thread and do yourself and your clients a favor, encrypt, encrypt and encrypt some more.


http://xxx.truecrypt.org/

[jeldf]

There is no evidence that happened. However imho it would be foolish to assume it hasn't happened. But what we are talking about is a mod or administrator, here or else where, being on the Dixon list, and then being flipped by DN.

That would really pose no additional risk to the casual end user. We have always known these sites are being monitored, so the biggest risk to an end user is his own posts.

However, there may be a risk to those involved with iks servers. IMHO any one who was "flipped" would be instructed to concentrate their efforts to identify these people. To that end, all it would take is an email addy that was assigned by an isp.........And it's no secret that there are gossip type emails circulating between staff at various sites, not to mention freebee boxes shipped to some. Of course the answers to this issue are obvious, stay anonymous and do NOT compromise others.........

great advice but when someone has $$$ in their eyes, they epically fail!

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

light switch to an electro magnet followed by a photocell ?



Have no idea what that is suppose to mean.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I think you need to pay attention to your site and the ramblings going on there before you venture out here


You want me to remove your ramblings ?



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

prove there was something illegal on it is all the defendant needs to say
we're talking personal pc's not servers here


If your in a legal case where its determine the hard drives were wiped wherre sales records are no where to be found plus other things, the prosecution can allege you wiped it on purpose to get rid of evidence. Anton pillar orders and US orders include searching residential homes of defendants and their pc's.


The defendant can say there was not anything illegal on it and it proves nothing but it can add up with other circumstantial evidence being presented in the case and be harmful.




GS2

[jeldf]

You want me to remove your ramblings ?



GS2

Yes please

[Nostradamus]

There is no evidence that happened. However imho it would be foolish to assume it hasn't happened. But what we are talking about is a mod or administrator, here or else where, being on the Dixon list, and then being flipped by DN.

That would really pose no additional risk to the casual end user. We have always known these sites are being monitored, so the biggest risk to an end user is his own posts.


No that is not what he is saying but at the same time hanni makes no sense coming here with his insinuations every few months. I would think that someody so paranoid of the entity of satfix would give them a wide berth. especially a man as esteemed as himself in the fta community. a legend in his own mind

[Just_angel]

I think this site gave him mod status did they not ?

did you see the list of sites he was mod at ? most gone now

wuf had Mod status way before he became a reseller....perhaps when your unsure about something it might be best to say nothing at all...and as for all those other sites l don't think he was a Mod at all of those what l think is he visited them and sold codes

[Hannibalector]

Have no idea what that is suppose to mean.



GS2

didn't think you would


You want me to remove your ramblings ?



GS2

you do whatever you want sunshine, I'd prefer they stay some of them are golden and legendary just ask Nostradamus....lol


wuf had Mod status way before he became a reseller....perhaps when your unsure about something it might be best to say nothing at all...and as for all those other sites l don't think he was a Mod at all of those what l think is he visited them and sold codes

that actually doesn't bode very well for here if you think about it, I said it before JA this site has a good many good people unfortunately it has a stigma visa vie court doc's and the air left by them, we've seen it over and over again

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

didn't think you would


I don't know if anyone would as far as how it relates to the discussion or what I said. Why talk in mysteries.




you do whatever you want sunshine, I'd prefer they stay some of them are golden and legendary just ask Nostradamus....lol


Yes I noticed what he said along with just_angel.




that actually doesn't bode very well for here if you think about it, I said it before JA this site has a good many good people unfortunately it has a stigma visa vie court doc's and the air left by them, we've seen it over and over again


As I posted before on NCN you seem to be unhappy or critical how several sites are run. I hope you find one that does it your way some day.



GS2

[Hannibalector]

I don't know if anyone would as far as how it relates to the discussion or what I said. Why talk in mysteries.

put your thinking cap on and take off the analyze cap




Yes I noticed what he said along with just_angel.






As I posted before on NCN you seem to be unhappy or critical how several sites are run. I hope you find one that does it your way some day.



GS2

I'm critical of everything have you not noticed ? it's what makes the world go around everyone with there own opinions

[Nostradamus]

cheap gin makes my world go round like that too :)

[Hannibalector]

he didn't go up this site's xxxxxx you twit
so stop your shat now with blaming this site

now how in the hell would you know that ?

[ChillyWilly]

he didn't go up this site's xxxxxxx you twit
so stop your shat now with blaming this site


now how in the hell would you know that ?


Easy boys......maybe we can all agree wuf's damage went beyond endusers, and leave it at that....

[1boxman]

Some how another good thread gone a-muck by the ncn gang that lives by hypocritical to rules ..

instead of a discussion..turns into a defense ..

I think you got your few minutes of fame !!

[Grave Digger]

But if you are reselling for the love of God follow some of the advice in this thread and do yourself and your clients a favor, encrypt, encrypt and encrypt some more.

sod, you seem to be missing the main point here.....

the sellers who are being busted are CO-OPERATING with the bust, they are not trying to run away, and they are not trying to hide anything, they are giving it up WILLINGLY....they are using the info as a bargaining tool to somewhat save themselves.....

therefore, i have said it a hundred times and i will say it once more.....

USING AN ENCRYPTION WOULDN'T MATTER!!!!!

[kboom]

sod, you seem to be missing the main point here.....

the sellers who are being busted are CO-OPERATING with the bust, they are not trying to run away, and they are not trying to hide anything, they are giving it up WILLINGLY....they are using the info as a bargaining tool to somewhat save themselves.....

therefore, i have said it a hundred times and i will say it once more.....

USING AN ENCRYPTION WOULDN'T MATTER!!!!!

Come on folks we are all just giving opinions. Or what I call at this point Monday-morning quarterbacking. It's pretty much a mute point now. Everything that is happening is a combination or part of what everyone is saying. Some are doing this and some are doing that and the information is given for what ever reason. If you want iks set your own up and don't sell it to anyone but yourself. Now I would never do that b/c I said I wouldn't.

[Anubis]

Let's not ruin a good thread folks.

Keep it as a discussion and stop the bantering.

[sodusme]

sod, you seem to be missing the main point here.....

the sellers who are being busted are CO-OPERATING with the bust, they are not trying to run away, and they are not trying to hide anything, they are giving it up WILLINGLY....they are using the info as a bargaining tool to somewhat save themselves.....

therefore, i have said it a hundred times and i will say it once more.....

USING AN ENCRYPTION WOULDN'T MATTER!!!!!

So than why encrypt any of your records to begin with?

Lets say they didn't find ANY records on Wuf's computer? Don't you think that would probably have been a little more beneficial for his cause than him turning over all the records? If that is in fact what happened? In other words its not handed to them on a golden platter. Make them work for it.

Now how would they not find any records? Encryption, encryption and more encryption. They are not "hiding" anything because its a little hard to shut the barn door to contain a horse after the horse is out. So you are saying that Wuf had all this stuff sealed up and encrypted and only turned over the passwords after he realized that he was in trouble? Now that begs the question why turn it over at all? If it was encrypted to begin with than any dummy would leave it that way. The more evidence they have against you the worse it plays out for you. I've played the "We'll cut you a deal if you tell us yada, yada, yada" b.s. game with the cops and trust me its NO deal.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

So than why encrypt any of your records to begin with?

Lets say they didn't find ANY records on Wuf's computer? Don't you think that would probably have been a little more beneficial for his cause than him turning over all the records? If that is in fact what happened? In other words its not handed to them on a golden platter. Make them work for it.

Now how would they not find any records? Encryption, encryption and more encryption. They are not "hiding" anything because its a little hard to shut the barn door to contain a horse after the horse is out. So you are saying that Wuf had all this stuff sealed up and encrypted and only turned over the passwords after he realized that he was in trouble? Now that begs the question why turn it over at all? If it was encrypted to begin with than any dummy would leave it that way. The more evidence they have against you the worse it plays out for you. I've played the "We'll cut you a deal if you tell us yada, yada, yada" b.s. game with the cops and trust me its NO deal.


In theory your suggestions make sense but in reality when someone is poped they are probably more tuned in making less hard for themselves and thus not tuned into making hard for them.


They are looking at possibly losing assets, maybe their homes and than the family kicks in. I suspect if your hit, have a wife and family they would be telling you to do anything you can to save whatever you can and cooperate. The person says well than I will be known as a Rat and the wife says I don't give a sh*t, cooperate and walk away from the sites, do you care about me and the children or what they call you. Its a hard situation to find yourself in.


Now some do fight it but usually end up turning things over later on after they refused or even went to jail for disobeying orders. Some fight it to the point they declare bankruptcy to not have a judgment enforced but than the opposition goes to court on that and usually wins with the court dismissing the bankruptcy.



GS2

[goadus]

With all this stuff going on with recovering posts to use against end users, can someone have all their posts removed from forums plus even user names, e-mail addys and anything else that points to someone posting info that could be used against someone.

[dishuser]

With all this stuff going on with recovering posts to use against end users, can someone have all their posts removed from forums plus even user names, e-mail addys and anything else that points to someone posting info that could be used against someone.
they already did that
why did you rejoin?

[Hannibalector]

Some how another good thread gone a-muck by the ncn gang that lives by hypocritical to rules ..

instead of a discussion..turns into a defense ..

I think you got your few minutes of fame !!

I've called and or emailed an attorney not once but twice to seek legal advice for those with a demand letter to see if a reverse demand letter to cancel is possible and I'm waiting to hear back, back the hell off

what the hell have you done other then post against NCN

[dishuser]

I've called and or emailed an attorney not once but twice to seek legal advice for those with a demand letter to see if a reverse demand letter to cancel is possible and I'm waiting to hear back, back the hell off

what the hell have you done other then post against NCN
sure you did...lol
you would've heard back by now

[1boxman]

I've called and or emailed an attorney not once but twice to seek legal advice for those with a demand letter to see if a reverse demand letter to cancel is possible and I'm waiting to hear back, back the hell off

what the hell have you done other then post against NCN

One your not there ..so stop promoting it ..

and I call bullsh&t on calling or email..which is it .

Every letter has its own situation with each person ..there for a lawyer info would be useless. Other than basic info on the law .

So the only lawyer you would have called ..My guess is for there team .

You have done enough bashing of sites ..case rests.

[Momotumbo]

There is only One Solution as I have Said Many Times on Many different Sites "Don't Buy From Resellers or pay with Paypal!"
The Chinese forms of payment seem the most secure if one is going to do it!!!
The Safest Way is to Subscribe to the Providers! JMHO

[goadus]

they already did that
why did you rejoin?

I didn't know they did it so I actually did not rejoin, just posted a question. See Ya! User name is still at the top though.

[goadus]

they already did that
why did you rejoin?

I rejoined because if they have the posts that were made the there's no point in starting over cause they'll have those too. So whats the point of starting over.

[Hannibalector]

sure you did...lol
you would've heard back by now


One your not there ..so stop promoting it ..

and I call bullsh&t on calling or email..which is it .

Every letter has its own situation with each person ..there for a lawyer info would be useless. Other than basic info on the law .

So the only lawyer you would have called ..My guess is for there team .

You have done enough bashing of sites ..case rests.

seems neither one of you challenged the issue when I told fifties I would email Faudlin Pierre the attorney for Fredrick Dames with regards to his case and the decision without prejudice.

[1boxman]

Snore...!!!!!!

[Anubis]

seems neither one of you challenged the issue when I told fifties I would email Faudlin Pierre the attorney for Fredrick Dames with regards to his case and the decision without prejudice.

Seems you have said this a couple times but no one has seen any results. Actions speak louder than words. Just saying.

[1boxman]

Well I call B.S ..Now whether hanni did or not ..doesn't really matter ...as I do not know any lawyer to give out any kind of consultation on a legal matter of such (demand) . Without charges and or...

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

seems neither one of you challenged the issue when I told fifties I would email Faudlin Pierre the attorney for Fredrick Dames with regards to his case and the decision without prejudice.


Feel free to post a copy of the emails you have sent. Not sure why you think some lawyer is going to answer an email from a non client without some retainer agreement.


I welcome any weapon that legally could be used but it needs to have merit. You strike me as a person who has no court or lawyer experience and takes your emotional feelings about Big Corporations having power, money, greed or whatever as having some influence on the court system and laws when it comes to applying them.


I never heard of a reserve demand letter to cancel a demand letter. What would the demand reverse letter say. ? If you don't stop sending demand letters we are going to sue you for x amount based on what ? that the original demand letter sent cause harm and injury somehow ? its extortion or that the demand letter is citing the wrong section of the DMCA ? but where do you get that from other than the opinion of sudusme. The section they cite seems to be fine ( 1201(1)(a) ) as its one that would apply to end users and the other one ( 1202(2)(a) ) is more geared to sellers, dealers.



1201(1)(a)


(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


1201(2)(a)


(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title





GS2

[chip douglas]

This is a dead issue now that its been shown that d!shnet has woufman's computer info showing your ip address, the channel your watching and at what time. Hardly anything that you can defend against.

[TTL 10]

This is a dead issue now that its been shown that d!shnet has woufman's computer info showing your ip address, the channel your watching and at what time. Hardly anything that you can defend against.

They don't have the chan / time info since he was just a reseller. What they got from him was the p$ des/username/ip/port and your email address. And then paypal probably provided the contact info.

Dishnet has no idea what (if anything at all) you watched. The entire demand letter is based on purchasing something, not necessarily using it.

The only way they would definitely know that you actually watched something was if the actual IKS server relays or origin servers were compromised. And this is assuming you're connected directly. Using a vpn to connect would be a good idea.

[alex70olds]

They don't have the chan / time info since he was just a reseller. What they got from him was the p$ des/username/ip/port and your email address. And then paypal probably provided the contact info.

Dishnet has no idea what (if anything at all) you watched. The entire demand letter is based on purchasing something, not necessarily using it.

The only way they would definitely know that you actually watched something was if the actual IKS server relays or origin servers were compromised. And this is assuming you're connected directly. Using a vpn to connect would be a good idea.

Welcome to Fix.

How do you know for a fact that wuf reseller panel did not have access to what IP, Cannel being watched etc? I would hope you would be only posting with 100% certainty, because I can tell you, your wrong, some resellers did have panels that gave then that information.

[TTL 10]

^ Basing it on the exhibits shown in the court documents. Why would resellers be given access to panels with IP / chans watched? Seems very dumb.

[alex70olds]

^ Basing it on the exhibits shown in the court documents. Why would resellers be given access to panels with IP / chans watched? Seems very dumb.

Yes, very dumb. Attached is an example of what some panels include. It was posted by thebeav, but his resellers do not have it. Nobody in the wuff cases has made it to the discovery phase yet, so we really don't know everything they have.

19213

[1boxman]

Throw in there too.. I have seen some severs hacked too .. info is out there. Plus they wont tell you everything until court .

[DerZ]

3 simple little letters... V-P-N. With all the recent court cases regarding sat testing, copyright infringement and of course all the recent discoveries with the USA spying on folks left and right, you really never know who is watching. Personally I treat my VPN with a higher regard then I do AntiVirus...

Back in the 90's we all surfed the internet with out having firewalls or antivirus software running, yet these days its just complete stupidity to do such a thing! The same thought should be applied for VPN's when surfing the web, downloading, testing ect.. The cyber world landscape is changing, lets try to keep up with it :P

[Hannibalector]

Feel free to post a copy of the emails you have sent. Not sure why you think some lawyer is going to answer an email from a non client without some retainer agreement.


I welcome any weapon that legally could be used but it needs to have merit. You strike me as a person who has no court or lawyer experience and takes your emotional feelings about Big Corporations having power, money, greed or whatever as having some influence on the court system and laws when it comes to applying them.


I never heard of a reserve demand letter to cancel a demand letter. What would the demand reverse letter say. ? If you don't stop sending demand letters we are going to sue you for x amount based on what ? that the original demand letter sent cause harm and injury somehow ? its extortion or that the demand letter is citing the wrong section of the DMCA ? but where do you get that from other than the opinion of sudusme. The section they cite seems to be fine ( 1201(1)(a) ) as its one that would apply to end users and the other one ( 1202(2)(a) ) is more geared to sellers, dealers.








GS2

maybe I asked him politely how the weather was in Florida, crack the ice sorta thing, get the ball rolling in a nice casual manner.

one person is aware of the 1st email response I received, believe me I thought the same as you and 1boxman through the question and answer

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

maybe I asked him politely how the weather was in Florida, crack the ice sorta thing, get the ball rolling in a nice casual manner.

one person is aware of the 1st email response I received, believe me I thought the same as you and 1boxman through the question and answer


How is this person aware. Is it because you told the person you got a response. Why not post the response. I want to know was there anything in this so called response that addressed demand letters and the law. Surely if there was you would have posted it.


Not to be negative but I don't think your going to get the ball rolling on some legal issue because your polite or acted in a nice casual manner. That is why I feel you have not had any experience with lawyers. Some lawyer might answer you, might answer thinking your a potential client but is not going to go into details on some legal issue/concern as an email pen pal. You want to get the ball rolling on that send them money. I am not putting down the effort just throwing in some reality. Some lawyers send bills that include their time to read your emails.



GS2

[sodusme]

Feel free to post a copy of the emails you have sent. Not sure why you think some lawyer is going to answer an email from a non client without some retainer agreement.


I welcome any weapon that legally could be used but it needs to have merit. You strike me as a person who has no court or lawyer experience and takes your emotional feelings about Big Corporations having power, money, greed or whatever as having some influence on the court system and laws when it comes to applying them.


I never heard of a reserve demand letter to cancel a demand letter. What would the demand reverse letter say. ? If you don't stop sending demand letters we are going to sue you for x amount based on what ? that the original demand letter sent cause harm and injury somehow ? its extortion or that the demand letter is citing the wrong section of the DMCA ? but where do you get that from other than the opinion of sudusme. The section they cite seems to be fine ( 1201(1)(a) ) as its one that would apply to end users and the other one ( 1202(2)(a) ) is more geared to sellers, dealers.








GS2

Section (1201)(1)(a) only applies if they can "prove" the case. Now I know you will say "But they have proven every case up until now". Now whether they have channels watched and so forth from this reseller panel remains to be seen. Maybe someone that actually has access to NFPS reseller panel can clear that up but if they do then all bets are off. Now the reason I say "prove" the case is because they could have proven section (1201)(2)(b) with just the knowledge of the fact that the defendant is in possession of a "code". But even that has loopholes. There was one member on these boards that stated he purchased the codes for a relative. So I have to ask you? Is he guilty under section (a) or (b)? No of course he isn't guilty under section (a). Now while he might be considered guilty under section (b) of being in possession of a "device" that has limited use he is not guilty under section (a). For the simple fact that even with a reseller panel and i.p.'s and channels watched there would be NO evidence of him having used said code. Therefore there would be no circumvention of technology that could have possibly taken place concerning his case.

But the simple fact remains that until which time you are in court (barring that they do not have channels watched from a reseller panel or forum posts) there is no way to prove section (1201)(1)(a) of the DMCA. While section (b) is a given before the ink was dry on the demand letter. So why go with section (a)? Why not just sue under the proper section of "possession"? Now I know you say one is for end users and one is for dealers I don't think that is entirely accurate. They are going to sue under ANY section they can get relief under. I don't believe the legislators had in mind one section pertaining to one type of criminal (YES I realize this is not criminal) while another section pertained to another.

Here is a court case against MS for misuse and misinterpretation of the DMCA section (1201)(1)(a):


When correctly interpreted, section 1201(a) prohibits something else altogether: digital trespass upon intellectual property by outsiders who have no authority to “unlock” a copyrighted work without “breaking into” the work through circumvention.


http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

Now if you read the correct interpretation of that section I still say (without channels viewed and forum posts) there is no way in hell to "prove" that. Now I know past history proves me wrong as they are getting judgement after judgement, but just because they are getting judgements doesn't make it "right".

[ChillyWilly]

Section (1201)(1)(a) only applies if they can "prove" the case. Now I know you will say "But they have proven every case up until now". Now whether they have channels watched and so forth from this reseller panel remains to be seen. Maybe someone that actually has access to NFPS reseller panel can clear that up but if they do then all bets are off. Now the reason I say "prove" the case is because they could have proven section (1201)(2)(b) with just the knowledge of the fact that the defendant is in possession of a "code". But even that has loopholes. There was one member on these boards that stated he purchased the codes for a relative. So I have to ask you? Is he guilty under section (a) or (b)? No of course he isn't guilty under section (a). Now while he might be considered guilty under section (b) of being in possession of a "device" that has limited use he is not guilty under section (a). For the simple fact that even with a reseller panel and i.p.'s and channels watched there would be NO evidence of him having used said code. Therefore there would be no circumvention of technology that could have possibly taken place concerning his case.

But the simple fact remains that until which time you are in court (barring that they do not have channels watched from a reseller panel or forum posts) there is no way to prove section (1201)(1)(a) of the DMCA. While section (b) is a given before the ink was dry on the demand letter. So why go with section (a)? Why not just sue under the proper section of "possession"? Now I know you say one is for end users and one is for dealers I don't think that is entirely accurate. They are going to sue under ANY section they can get relief under. I don't believe the legislators had in mind one section pertaining to one type of criminal (YES I realize this is not criminal) while another section pertained to another.

Here is a court case against MS for misuse and misinterpretation of the DMCA section (1201)(1)(a):




http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

Now if you read the correct interpretation of that section I still say (without channels viewed and forum posts) there is no way in hell to "prove" that. Now I know past history proves me wrong as they are getting judgement after judgement, but just because they are getting judgements doesn't make it "right".


I believe some where in the federal statutes it states "any action taken in furtherance of a crime is to be considered evidence of commission of that crime". An example would be the get-away driver in a bank robbery, he would be as guilty as the rest. The point being that proof of purchase of an iks code could and would be considered "furtherance". but jmo

[sodusme]

I believe some where in the federal statutes it states "any action taken in furtherance of a crime is to be considered evidence of commission of that crime". An example would be the get-away driver in a bank robbery, he would be as guilty as the rest. The point being that proof of purchase of an iks code could and would be considered "furtherance". but jmo

One could argue though that the MS vs Datel case parallels this case in that it is very similar. Basically the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) and their attorneys are arguing that section 1201 of the DMCA doesn't provide relief under "copyright infringement" based on the "use" or even "possession" of an item that permits the misuse of a copyrighted work.


"Letting Xbox owners use a third-party memory card does not put Microsoft at risk of copyright infringement,"


https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2011/06/16

Its an interesting defense and I am inclined to side with them. Which also begs the question if using a "third party", "hacked" controller for MS could be viewed as acceptable why not is using a "third party", "hacked" firmware acceptable use to receive DN programming? I know the argument touches on "subscribers" of the XBox so perhaps people that also subscribed to DN would be viewed differently? So the basic premise is "how can you steal something you are paying for"? I see where the EFF attorneys are going with this in that the word "circumvent" in its literal meaning is to "go around or bypass" which conveys meaning of "not paying" or "eluding" payment.


EFF explains that the DMCA was aimed at preventing access to copyrighted material by non-paying customers

I can guarantee MS has more money to throw around then DN so if they can be called into question on their interpretation of the DMCA so can DN/Nagra.

[kboom]

This is all so true, however it depends on how deep your pockets are.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Section (1201)(1)(a) only applies if they can "prove" the case. Now I know you will say "But they have proven every case up until now". Now whether they have channels watched and so forth from this reseller panel remains to be seen. Maybe someone that actually has access to NFPS reseller panel can clear that up but if they do then all bets are off. Now the reason I say "prove" the case is because they could have proven section (1201)(2)(b) with just the knowledge of the fact that the defendant is in possession of a "code". But even that has loopholes. There was one member on these boards that stated he purchased the codes for a relative. So I have to ask you? Is he guilty under section (a) or (b)? No of course he isn't guilty under section (a). Now while he might be considered guilty under section (b) of being in possession of a "device" that has limited use he is not guilty under section (a). For the simple fact that even with a reseller panel and i.p.'s and channels watched there would be NO evidence of him having used said code. Therefore there would be no circumvention of technology that could have possibly taken place concerning his case.

But the simple fact remains that until which time you are in court (barring that they do not have channels watched from a reseller panel or forum posts) there is no way to prove section (1201)(1)(a) of the DMCA. While section (b) is a given before the ink was dry on the demand letter. So why go with section (a)? Why not just sue under the proper section of "possession"? Now I know you say one is for end users and one is for dealers I don't think that is entirely accurate. They are going to sue under ANY section they can get relief under. I don't believe the legislators had in mind one section pertaining to one type of criminal (YES I realize this is not criminal) while another section pertained to another.

Here is a court case against MS for misuse and misinterpretation of the DMCA section (1201)(1)(a):




http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

Now if you read the correct interpretation of that section I still say (without channels viewed and forum posts) there is no way in hell to "prove" that. Now I know past history proves me wrong as they are getting judgement after judgement, but just because they are getting judgements doesn't make it "right".


There is no such thing stated that it only applies if you can prove the case. No section in law is based on only if you can prove it that it can be alleged. A case goes to court and the court decides if the defendant is guilty or not.


Its perfectly acceptable to allege that infraction as far as I am concern. If they are not successful than you as defendant will win.



GS2

[sodusme]

There is no such thing stated that it only applies if you can prove the case. No section in law is based on only if you can prove it that it can be alleged. A case goes to court and the court decides if the defendant is guilty or not.


Its perfectly acceptable to allege that infraction as far as I am concern. If they are not successful than you as defendant will win.



GS2

Have you ever heard of someone bringing suit against someone for something they can't prove occurred? Your answer should be YES because you have heard of these cases. I still say they cannot "prove" (without forum posts and reseller panel channels viewed) that any circumvention took place. They can "guess" and they can make a "hypothesis" but that's not what a law is based on (at least its not supposed to be). Its based on "proof", and YES I realize they only have to prove 51% but its still guess work on their part. There is no logical way to prove that any circumvention took place based solely on a purchase of some codes.

That would be like me and you exchanging some PM's about you buying a login to a site. I sell you the login and maybe you don't use it (because you decided not to), maybe you c/p it wrong and it doesn't work, maybe it was for a buddy of yours, maybe the pass got changed before you could use it. Bottom line though without any record of you actually logging into that site I sold you what evidence exists that you did in fact log into it? None whatsoever. Now as an attorney looking to reap benefits from a lawsuit can I "guess" that you used the login? Of course I can. Can I make a "hypothesis" that you used the login? Of course I can. But regardless of all the guess work there is no "proof" that you did in fact use that login.

The same logic can be applied here.

Preponderance of the evidence is a scam IMO as I could allege any wrong doing I wanted against anyone by simply shifting the facts and outright misstating the facts. DN/Nagra is doing exactly that here by stating unequivocally that someone "used" a code when in fact that person may not have used that code at all.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

One could argue though that the MS vs Datel case parallels this case in that it is very similar. Basically the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) and their attorneys are arguing that section 1201 of the DMCA doesn't provide relief under "copyright infringement" based on the "use" or even "possession" of an item that permits the misuse of a copyrighted work.


I don't see the comparison at all. They are not addressing possession or use. They ( EFF ) state the following.




When correctly interpreted, section 1201(a) prohibits something else altogether: digital trespass upon intellectual property by outsiders who have no authority to “unlock” a copyrighted work without “breaking into” the work through circumvention. In other words, section 1201(a) protects copyright owners’ ability to demand and receive payment before granting the authority to decrypt, descramble, or otherwise circumvent the technological protection measures preventing access to their works. The DMCA did not empower copyright owners to prevent individuals who have legitimately purchased the authority to unlock their works from doing so, even when the copyright owner contends that such activity constitutes a breach of contract.


Basically they say when applied correctly in their opinion it protects copyright owners ability to demand payment before granting authority to decrypt or circumvent preventing access to their works. To me they are saying DN/Nag are correctly interpretating section 1201(1)(a) because the end user was not granted authority to decrypt or circumvent their access works without payment.



In the microsoft case EFF states that the purchase of lawfully purchase xboxes and third party memory cards does not violate the intent of 1201 but to say this equilivates that they say that lawfully purchase STBS with IKS codes control words that are design to circumvent their access works ( programming ) should also not be intent of the DMCA is not what they are saying.


They say that the third party memory cards do the same as microsoft's competing memory cards and they want to use the DMCA to protect their business and eliminate their competition. There can be a misuse there. There is no competition issue with IKS period. IKS does exactly what EFF say the DMCA was intended for to make it illegal to circumvent their technology by IKS control words.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Have you ever heard of someone bringing suit against someone for something they can't prove occurred? Your answer should be YES because you have heard of these cases. I still say they cannot "prove" (without forum posts and reseller panel channels viewed) that any circumvention took place. They can "guess" and they can make a "hypothesis" but that's not what a law is based on (at least its not supposed to be). Its based on "proof", and YES I realize they only have to prove 51% but its still guess work on their part. There is no logical way to prove that any circumvention took place based solely on a purchase of some codes.

That would be like me and you exchanging some PM's about you buying a login to a site. I sell you the login and maybe you don't use it (because you decided not to), maybe you c/p it wrong and it doesn't work, maybe it was for a buddy of yours, maybe the pass got changed before you could use it. Bottom line though without any record of you actually logging into that site I sold you what evidence exists that you did in fact log into it? None whatsoever. Now as an attorney looking to reap benefits from a lawsuit can I "guess" that you used the login? Of course I can. Can I make a "hypothesis" that you used the login? Of course I can. But regardless of all the guess work there is no "proof" that you did in fact use that login.

The same logic can be applied here.

Preponderance of the evidence is a scam IMO as I could allege any wrong doing I wanted against anyone by simply shifting the facts and outright misstating the facts. DN/Nagra is doing exactly that here by stating unequivocally that someone "used" a code when in fact that person may not have used that code at all.



Its up to the court to decide if they prove it or not. You saying they can't prove it is based on your opinion of what has to be proved in these cases.


You exchanging a login is not illegal so whether it was used or not would never come up. IKS has one purpose and that is to provide a way to illegal obtain programming. You saying you never used it and you can't prove it versus the fact you paid money for this illegal subscription is damaging as it is. The court knows its impractical that the plaintiff will actually be there to watch you use it so they will apply common sense based on the evidence whatever the common sense leads to.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

From the EFF brief:



As the Ninth Circuit’s most recent DMCA opinion stresses, section 1201(a) only prohibits
unauthorized circumvention, and 1201 claimants bear the burden of proving that the alleged
circumvention occurred without authority.


This case requires the Court to fill that gap. Microsoft’s allegations rest on the flawed premise
that consumers who lawfully purchased Xbox 360 consoles and video games nonetheless violated
federal law by using aftermarket accessories manufactured by an “unauthorized” competitor. In fact,
as explained below, consumers receive the “authority” to circumvent (e.g., unlock) the products to the
extent necessary to use them for their intended purpose when they purchase the products, even when
that use involves “unauthorized” competing accessories.



Microsoft produces the same aftermarket product with the intent to unlock. This is surely not the case witk IKS. DN does not market IKS with granting authority to their programming with saying IKS competitors don't have their authority only their IKS does.




GS2

[alex70olds]

I mentioned earlier, that D!sh is using the ECPA to get judgements and damages not DMCA. This may not effect your discusions of proof, just wanted to clarify. They site 18 U.S.C. 2511 and 18 U.S.C 2520.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2511
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2520

Attached is a recomendation for default judgement. It is a little different and does site forum posts and PM's. It is an educational look at how the court interprets the above sited sections of the ECPA.

19231

[sodusme]

I don't see the comparison at all. They are not addressing possession or use. They ( EFF ) state the following.






Basically they say when applied correctly in their opinion it protects copyright owners ability to demand payment before granting authority to decrypt or circumvent preventing access to their works. To me they are saying DN/Nag are correctly interpretating section 1201(1)(a) because the end user was not granted authority to decrypt or circumvent their access works without payment.



In the microsoft case EFF states that the purchase of lawfully purchase xboxes and third party memory cards does not violate the intent of 1201 but to say this equilivates that they say that lawfully purchase STBS with IKS codes control words that are design to circumvent their access works ( programming ) should also not be intent of the DMCA is not what they are saying.


They say that the third party memory cards do the same as microsoft's competing memory cards and they want to use the DMCA to protect their business and eliminate their competition. There can be a misuse there. There is no competition issue with IKS period. IKS does exactly what EFF say the DMCA was intended for to make it illegal to circumvent their technology by IKS control words.




GS2

No actually they are stating in a nutshell "how can you steal something you have paid for". Since the people using these controllers and SD cards have purchased subscriptions to the XBox service. The same could be argued here. If someone has subscribed to DN programming and in turn is "circumventing" it via another route they have paid for subscription of the copyright work. The EFF is maintaining that Congress had people who simply were stealing a copyright work without any compensation to the developers or company in mind when they wrote section (1201)(1)(a)

You are correct in that they are not addressing the issue of "possession" or "use" of the controllers and SD cards. The EFF is stating that the mere possession or use of these devices does not equate to circumvention of a copyright work. Again the same argument could made here. Codes do not equate to the circumvention of a copyright work.


When correctly interpreted, section 1201(a) prohibits something else altogether: digital trespass upon intellectual property by outsiders who have no authority to “unlock” a copyrighted work without “breaking into” the work through circumvention. (this is referring to people who have not subscribed or purchased the copyright work at all) In other words, section 1201(a) protects copyright owners’ ability to demand and receive payment before granting the authority to decrypt, descramble, or otherwise circumvent the technological protection measures preventing access to their works. The DMCA did not empower copyright owners to prevent individuals who have legitimately purchased the authority to unlock their works from doing so, (by purchasing a subscription to a copyright work you have effectively "bought" the rights to tinker with it) even when the copyright owner contends that such activity constitutes a breach of contract.

They are saying that the DMCA was not meant for people to not be able to "tinker" with a copyrighted work after "paying" or "subscribing" to said copyright work. It has nothing to do with receiving "payment" for anything other then the subscription or copyright work itself. After payment you are supposedly free to "tinker" and even "reverse engineer" the copyright work with some limitations.

[sodusme]

This actually sums up my post nicely:


This case requires the Court to fill that gap. Microsoft’s allegations rest on the flawed premise
that consumers who lawfully purchased Xbox 360 consoles and video games nonetheless violated
federal law by using aftermarket accessories manufactured by an “unauthorized” competitor. In fact,
as explained below, consumers receive the “authority” to circumvent (e.g., unlock) the products to the
extent necessary to use them for their intended purpose when they purchase the products, even when
that use involves “unauthorized” competing accessories.

If only I had read that before posting the above. ;)

[Anubis]

No actually they are stating in a nutshell "how can you steal something you have paid for". Since the people using these controllers and SD cards have purchased subscriptions to the XBox service. The same could be argued here. If someone has subscribed to DN programming and in turn is "circumventing" it via another route they have paid for subscription of the copyright work. The EFF is maintaining that Congress had people who simply were stealing a copyright work without any compensation to the developers or company in mind when they wrote section (1201)(1)(a)

You are correct in that they are not addressing the issue of "possession" or "use" of the controllers and SD cards. The EFF is stating that the mere possession or use of these devices does not equate to circumvention of a copyright work. Again the same argument could made here. Codes do not equate to the circumvention of a copyright work.



They are saying that the DMCA was not meant for people to not be able to "tinker" with a copyrighted work after "paying" or "subscribing" to said copyright work. It has nothing to do with receiving "payment" for anything other then the subscription or copyright work itself. After payment you are supposedly free to "tinker" and even "reverse engineer" the copyright work with some limitations.
I am sure you could in the copyright holders lab. Outside of that I would say that is where the limitations aspect comes. Just my thoughts.
Anyway,it was just something that caught my eye and I was thinking.

[sodusme]

I am sure you could in the copyright holders lab. Outside of that I would say that is where the limitations aspect comes. Just my thoughts.
Anyway,it was just something that caught my eye and I was thinking.

LOL yeah you better be able to "prove" that is what you had mind and that is a discussion too lengthy I'm sure for this thread but it does exist.

I'll see if I can find a snippet of the code:


http://chillingeffects.org/reverse/

Its very complicated and like I said we could go on for pages concerning this so I won't muddy up the thread with my views on it. But just as a side note if you want to read up on it it does indeed exist. ;)

I have no idea what criteria or circumstances have to be in place to claim this. I only know it exists. I do see where some companies are putting "clauses" in EUA's to prohibit reverse engineering. I'm not a DN subscriber so I couldn't tell you if their EUA reads that way or not? I do also see where "software" is covered now I would think that their signal would fall under the category of "software"?

[sodusme]

I am sure you could in the copyright holders lab. Outside of that I would say that is where the limitations aspect comes. Just my thoughts.
Anyway,it was just something that caught my eye and I was thinking.

See now this is B.S IMO:


You agree that you will not try to reverse-engineer, decompile or disassemble, nor will you tamper with or modify, any software or hardware contained within any receiveror Smart Card. Such actions are strictly prohibited and may result in the termination of this Agreement, disconnection of your Services and/or legal action.

But one could also argue that by using a "third party" receiver that you are not "first hand" anyways the one doing the reverse engineering. That you are simply using a third party device that may or may not be authorized.


consumers receive the “authority” to circumvent (e.g., unlock) the products to the
extent necessary to use them for their intended purpose when they purchase the products, even when
that use involves “unauthorized” competing accessories.

The word "consumers" implies that you are not the one doing the reverse engineering and you are still under your right to use the copyright work to its fullest extent even though the "competing" accessories are "unauthorized". So you are simply an "end user" in other words and not the one manufacturing or producing or marketing the item.

Its interesting wording and I find it very intriguing.

[sodusme]

Another interesting point is that in the letter it states:


....which provided you and your customers with unauthorized access to DISH Network television programming and computer software and decryption codes needed to descramble that programming without payment of a subscription fee to DISH network.

I see they are making a point of taking the "end user" out of the role of "customer" and putting him into the scenario of having customers himself. As if the end user were the one that facilitated this whole circumvention along with "his customers".

LOL what a crock.

[Nostradamus]

hmmm makes you wonder why warner Bros, and other networks and movie studios do not sue DN under the same pretense of copyright infringement for failing to secure their encrypted signal adequately to prevent unauthorized viewing

[ChillyWilly]

With all do respect, I think you guys are getting lost in the weeds here. With legal fees being what they are, there is no way DN can hire an attorney for $3500 or even $5000 and pursue these cases. I believe DN is letting the lawyer(s) keep 100% of all collectables; this is the only thing that makes sense. DN benefits by the anti-piracy scare publicity.

So, assuming the above is true, it is logical to assume the lawyer(s) will not waste their time on any endeavor that is not a slam dunk. Lawyers are also very adept at discovering assets of any possible defendant. Or simply put, if a lawyer has seen fit to sue, he most probably has a winning case, has researched the assets, and is filing in a state which has plaintiff friendly seizure laws.

Bottom line, if you received a letter, you have a real problem......but jmo

[ChillyWilly]

hmmm makes you wonder why warner Bros, and other networks and movie studios do not sue DN under the same pretense of copyright infringement for failing to secure their encrypted signal adequately to prevent unauthorized viewing

They are selling the ppv movies to DN and/or receiving royalties for same. So they may wish to keep that relationship in tact.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago where a cable company sued DN/BEV. They claimed by not securing their signal, DN/BEV enabled piracy, thus reducing the consumer base, and thus reducing sales and profits........

[dishuser]

They are selling the ppv movies to DN and/or receiving royalties for same. So they may wish to keep that relationship in tact.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago where a cable company sued DN/BEV. They claimed by not securing their signal, DN/BEV enabled piracy, thus reducing the consumer base, and thus reducing sales and profits........no videotron went to the crtc not court

[jazzman]

I wonder how many demand letters have actually been sent. My guess is thousands or close to that. Last i read according to alex only 16 cases have actually ended up in court. I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up. Interesting idea as it seems to be working but if you pay the 3.5k what would be the chance then that they still won't come after these people at a later date? The second page of these letters seems to indicate a full release but then again also when you pay the 3.5k you are actually admitting your guilt by buying the codes. Copy of one of the demand letters, "page two" that I found at another site. I assume the letters are mostly all the same. Let's think about this...

[sodusme]

I wonder how many demand letters have actually been sent. My guess is thousands or close to that. Last i read according to alex only 16 cases have actually ended up in court. I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up. Interesting idea as it seems to be working but if you pay the 3.5k what would be the chance then that they still won't come after these people at a later date? The second page of these letters seems to indicate a full release but then again also when you pay the 3.5k you are actually admitting your guilt by buying the codes. Copy of one of the demand letters, "page two" that I found at another site. I assume the letters are mostly all the same. Let's think about this...

That's why its advisable to begin all correspondence with them with the phrase "without prejudice".


http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/without-prejudice.html

That way you are not admitting any guilt and they can't use what you say as evidence in a court of law.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

No actually they are stating in a nutshell "how can you steal something you have paid for". Since the people using these controllers and SD cards have purchased subscriptions to the XBox service. The same could be argued here. If someone has subscribed to DN programming and in turn is "circumventing" it via another route they have paid for subscription of the copyright work. The EFF is maintaining that Congress had people who simply were stealing a copyright work without any compensation to the developers or company in mind when they wrote section (1201)(1)(a)


No they did not pay DN for the programing if you receive it through IKS. DN does not authorize it period. The only way to subscribe to it is to pay them directly. If you pay them for a subscription it does not mean than you can go use IKS to circumvent.



You are correct in that they are not addressing the issue of "possession" or "use" of the controllers and SD cards. The EFF is stating that the mere possession or use of these devices does not equate to circumvention of a copyright work. Again the same argument could made here. Codes do not equate to the circumvention of a copyright work.


Your comparing third party memory cards that Mircosoft sells to IKS that never pays for the accessed works. You can argue the purchase of the codes does not prove you circumvented but I think you have an uphill battle because the purchase of these codes has only one purpose and that is to circumvent the technology. Not sure a court is going to believe the purchase of them served for any other purpose but to circumvent.




They are saying that the DMCA was not meant for people to not be able to "tinker" with a copyrighted work after "paying" or "subscribing" to said copyright work. It has nothing to do with receiving "payment" for anything other then the subscription or copyright work itself. After payment you are supposedly free to "tinker" and even "reverse engineer" the copyright work with some limitations.


Why are you even assuming someone who paid for subscription codes to circumvent the technology paid the provider for a subscription. Your suggesting they paid DN for a subscription to their copyright programming then decided to tinker with it. The allegation by DN is that you paid for a subscription to codes control words to circumvent their protected works without being authorize by them.


People who pay DN for a programming subscription don't need to pay wulfman for a subscription to his service that allows you to receive the programming without paying DN directly for a subscription to their programming.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

See now this is B.S IMO:



But one could also argue that by using a "third party" receiver that you are not "first hand" anyways the one doing the reverse engineering. That you are simply using a third party device that may or may not be authorized.



The word "consumers" implies that you are not the one doing the reverse engineering and you are still under your right to use the copyright work to its fullest extent even though the "competing" accessories are "unauthorized". So you are simply an "end user" in other words and not the one manufacturing or producing or marketing the item.

Its interesting wording and I find it very intriguing.


What they are referring to is similar to unlocking your cell phone to go use it with the cell provider of your choice. If Verizon comes to to court saying you can not unlock their phones than they are trying to use the law ( DMCA ) to cut out competition which is what EFF alleges with Microsoft is trying to do with their use of the DMCA with basically saying you have to use their memory cards when other memory cards do the same thing that is legal.


To me this has nothing to do with DN's allegation against end users who subscribe to IKS to cut out IKS as competition. IKS is not competition. Its circumventing a technology without payment to anyone period.


Maybe its only me but I do not at all see a comparison of what is going on with the Mircrosoft case as being applied to the DN cases, not at all. IKS simply does not pay anyone for the protected copyright programming.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

hmmm makes you wonder why warner Bros, and other networks and movie studios do not sue DN under the same pretense of copyright infringement for failing to secure their encrypted signal adequately to prevent unauthorized viewing


That has been done sorta of in Canada with Videotron suing Bev for not securing their signal or more precisely not doing enough on the piracy problem. Videotron won a judgment in the case.



hxxp://www.quebecor.com/en/comm/videotron-and-tva-lawsuits-against-bell-tv-superior-court-condemns-bell-connection-piracy-its-t



Videotron and TVA lawsuits against Bell TV: The Superior Court condemns Bell in connection with the piracy of its TV distribution system

Français

24 juillet 2012


Montreal (Quebec), July 24 2012– Following legal proceedings that stretched out over seven years, Quebecor Media Inc. welcomes with great satisfaction yesterday’s Quebec Superior Court findings blaming Bell TV (formerly Bell ExpressVu) in judgments stemming from lawsuits brought on by Videotron Ltd. and TVA Group Inc. charging that Bell TV had failed to protect its satellite television distribution signal against piracy.

“We are glad to see the Superior Court condemn Bell for resorting to illegal means that weaken its competitors and for having failed to meet its obligations to protect rather than undermine the integrity of the Quebec and Canadian broadcasting sector. Unfortunately, we once again find that Bell is willing to use any means necessary to reach its ends and put more money in its pocket, regardless of the good governance and corporate social responsibilities that behoove a company of Bell’s size. It appears inconceivable that a company that benefited for decades from being a monopoly could have resorted to practices so detrimental to the rest of the broadcasting industry as to be condemned by law,” said Pierre Karl Péladeau, president and CEO of Quebecor, Quebecor Media and Sun Media Corporation.

In judgments in two connected cases, the Honourable Justice Joel A. Silcoff ordered Bell TV to pay close to a million dollars to Videotron and TVA Group after concluding that Bell TV committed a serious fault by not taking the appropriate measures at the opportune time to prevent the illegal decoding of its satellite television signals, even though it knew the extent of the piracy of its system and had the required technology at its disposal to end it




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

With all do respect, I think you guys are getting lost in the weeds here. With legal fees being what they are, there is no way DN can hire an attorney for $3500 or even $5000 and pursue these cases. I believe DN is letting the lawyer(s) keep 100% of all collectables; this is the only thing that makes sense. DN benefits by the anti-piracy scare publicity.

So, assuming the above is true, it is logical to assume the lawyer(s) will not waste their time on any endeavor that is not a slam dunk. Lawyers are also very adept at discovering assets of any possible defendant. Or simply put, if a lawyer has seen fit to sue, he most probably has a winning case, has researched the assets, and is filing in a state which has plaintiff friendly seizure laws.

Bottom line, if you received a letter, you have a real problem......but jmo


For me it always has been about the scare to end users and publicity of it and showing their are fighting piracy. It fits on their propaganda web site when they can post they got a $10,000 default judgment. Its not about making a big score in court with gaining revenues received from people from the demand letters because I hardly doubt that happens with all the expenses at lest in my opinion.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

They are selling the ppv movies to DN and/or receiving royalties for same. So they may wish to keep that relationship in tact.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago where a cable company sued DN/BEV. They claimed by not securing their signal, DN/BEV enabled piracy, thus reducing the consumer base, and thus reducing sales and profits........



Yup just saw this after I made the post about videotron ( cable company ) against Bev ( sat company )



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

no videotron went to the crtc not court


No they sued Bev in court and won. The decision was quite detailed and even showed that Bev did not even have a written contract with Nag. That to me was shocking and embarrassing. They might know about telephones but seemed helpless when it came to satellite security technology.



GS2

[sodusme]

No they did not pay DN for the programing if you receive it through IKS. DN does not authorize it period. The only way to subscribe to it is to pay them directly. If you pay them for a subscription it does not mean than you can go use IKS to circumvent.





Your comparing third party memory cards that Mircosoft sells to IKS that never pays for the accessed works. You can argue the purchase of the codes does not prove you circumvented but I think you have an uphill battle because the purchase of these codes has only one purpose and that is to circumvent the technology. Not sure a court is going to believe the purchase of them served for any other purpose but to circumvent.






Why are you even assuming someone who paid for subscription codes to circumvent the technology paid the provider for a subscription. Your suggesting they paid DN for a subscription to their copyright programming then decided to tinker with it. The allegation by DN is that you paid for a subscription to codes control words to circumvent their protected works without being authorize by them.


People who pay DN for a programming subscription don't need to pay wulfman for a subscription to his service that allows you to receive the programming without paying DN directly for a subscription to their programming.




GS2


What they are referring to is similar to unlocking your cell phone to go use it with the cell provider of your choice. If Verizon comes to to court saying you can not unlock their phones than they are trying to use the law ( DMCA ) to cut out competition which is what EFF alleges with Microsoft is trying to do with their use of the DMCA with basically saying you have to use their memory cards when other memory cards do the same thing that is legal.


To me this has nothing to do with DN's allegation against end users who subscribe to IKS to cut out IKS as competition. IKS is not competition. Its circumventing a technology without payment to anyone period.


Maybe its only me but I do not at all see a comparison of what is going on with the Mircrosoft case as being applied to the DN cases, not at all. IKS simply does not pay anyone for the protected copyright programming.



GS2

OK lets make some comparisons here:


http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

Datel manufacturers third party accessories for to be used on MS's XBox 360.
One of Microsoft’s defenses is that Datel violated a section – 1201(a) – of the DMCA by selling third-party memory units that are mainly used for cheating on Xbox games.

NPFS puts out codes to be used on DN's dishes and lnb's.
Court documents allege that the receivers using these codes have only one main use and that is theft of service.

Although Microsoft attempts to obscure the effect of this interpretation by characterizing such users as “cheaters,”.
MS claims that its customers who use these third party items sold by Datel are "cheaters".

DN characterizes some of its users as "cheaters".
DN states that anyone that purchased a code is a thief.

Microsoft effectively asks the Court to grant it exclusive rights to sell any and all Xbox-360-compatible memory cards, controllers, and headsets.
MS wants exclusive rights to manufacture all third party equipment that works with their XBox 360.

DN doesn't want Pansat and Sonicview and Viewsat manufacturing receivers to use with their dishes and lnb's.
DN has said time and time again that these items should be removed from the market and even posts on SS that they are "illegal".

The Redmond-based company also pointed out that its Xbox 360 customer agreement states users can only use Microsoft-approved accessories, and that Datel’s are not certified.
MS's EUA states that only MS approved accessories can be used on the XBox 360.

DN's EUA stipulates that only DN approved equipment can be used on their dishes and lnb's.
Any person who procures Equipment that has been so modified is an accessory to that offense and may be punished in the same manner.

In a response, Datel said it indeed overcame the Xbox security chip to make its accessories work with the console. Datel argued its memory cards were not specifically marketed as instruments for cheating and indeed have legitimate uses, including the basic storage of game data.
Datel has successfully unlocked security measures and admitted to the same to have their third party accessories work on MS's XBox 360.

NFPS has obviously tampered with DN's smart cards.
NFPS has made it so that they smart cards effectively work on a third party box made by Pansat, Sonicview or Viewsat.

But Microsoft says Datel’s own website stated the accessories company “creates the world’s best-selling videogame cheat products,” that a user can “install files from your PC to you console’s hard drive, and inspect.
MS alleges that Datel's own website boasts of theft of service being accomplished with their third part accessories.

NFPS has claims on their website about offering IKS service.
Join today the best IKS Private Server, NFPS is now faster, more secure stable.

Consumers paid Microsoft and its affiliates for the devices and games in question, and the Court should not allow Microsoft to unfairly restrict the full use of these products, even if the use falls outside of Microsoft’s vision.
Once purchasing equipment from MS and subscribing to the XBox 360 network the consumer as argued by the EFF has the right to tinker with the system.

This above statement is the only possible non-parallel statement as not everyone who "pirates" DN's signal has purchased equipment from them or pays a subscription fee to them monthly.

Still don't see any similarities in these two cases?

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

OK lets make some comparisons here:


http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/06/20/microsoft-misusing-copyright-law-in-xbox-antitrust-lawsuit-group-says/

Datel manufacturers third party accessories for to be used on MS's XBox 360.

NPFS puts out codes to be used on DN's dishes and lnb's.

Although Microsoft attempts to obscure the effect of this interpretation by characterizing such users as “cheaters,”.

DN characterizes some of its users as "cheaters".

Microsoft effectively asks the Court to grant it exclusive rights to sell any and all Xbox-360-compatible memory cards, controllers, and headsets.

DN doesn't want Pansat and Sonicview and Viewsat manufacturing receivers to use with their dishes and lnb's.

The Redmond-based company also pointed out that its Xbox 360 customer agreement states users can only use Microsoft-approved accessories, and that Datel’s are not certified.

DN's EUA stipulates that only DN approved equipment can be used on their dishes and lnb's.

In a response, Datel said it indeed overcame the Xbox security chip to make its accessories work with the console. Datel argued its memory cards were not specifically marketed as instruments for cheating and indeed have legitimate uses, including the basic storage of game data.

NFPS has obviously tampered with DN's smart cards.

But Microsoft says Datel’s own website stated the accessories company “creates the world’s best-selling videogame cheat products,” that a user can “install files from your PC to you console’s hard drive, and inspect.

NFPS has claims on their website about offering IKS service.

Consumers paid Microsoft and its affiliates for the devices and games in question, and the Court should not allow Microsoft to unfairly restrict the full use of these products, even if the use falls outside of Microsoft’s vision.

This above statement is the only possible non-parallel statement as not everyone who "pirates" DN's signal has purchased equipment from them or pays a subscription fee to them monthly.

Still don't see any similarities in these two cases?


No because IKS is clearly theft of signals by way of circumventing. I might add that we don't know who will win the Microsoft case. It could go their way too. ?


Sure the EFF brief sounds good but you need to see the counter brief because that will also have merit.



GS2

[BPG]

If you end up paying the money, send the payment in all Pennies to those pricks .... lol

BPG~

[ranger]

BPG, It's refreshing to have someone post a constructive comment here ... Most others are simply BS !!!!!!

[Grave Digger]

I think mabey DN had to at least go after the slam dunk cases and the rest is simply a scare tactic to get people to pay up.

that is my thinking also....there is no way DN would risk being defeated in court or the entire FTA community would be laughing, they wouldnt take that chance, if you get a court summons they are 100% sure of the case, and you are done

[jazzman]

that is my thinking also....there is no way DN would risk being defeated in court or the entire FTA community would be laughing, they wouldnt take that chance, if you get a court summons they are 100% sure of the case, and you are done

That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic and your ISP has changed and given you a different IP can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....

[dishuser]

That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....you do realize when you guys changed your nicks a search on the new nick's posts revealed your original nick right?

[jazzman]

you do realize when you guys changed your nicks a search on the new nick's posts revealed your original nick right?

No I didn't realise that DU, thanks for pointing that out...one more piece of the puzzle solved lol. Anymore advice from you is appreciated..

[Hannibalector]

No because IKS is clearly theft of signals by way of circumventing. I might add that we don't know who will win the Microsoft case. It could go their way too. ?


Sure the EFF brief sounds good but you need to see the counter brief because that will also have merit.



GS2

the signal in no way by way of IKS is being stolen, count out theft the people are paying for service, the circumvention of the keys are where GS2 ?

the only circumvention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Grave Digger]

That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic and your ISP has changed and given you a different IP can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....

it comes down to a few different factors as to who they will pursue,

the first is how much evidence they have against you, in the forms of paypal transactions, email corespondence with the seller, PM corespondence with the seller, and last but not least form posts such as you are "up/down" or "great UFC fight last night", etc etc....

so if your an idiot and post such things then be afraid, be very afraid,

second would be your job/assets....they arn't going to bother with somebody who lives in their parents basement, doesn't have a job, or a bank account, or any possessions, waste of time,

if you are employed with a taxable income and/or you have assets such as a car or house, then they are more likely to come after you, and believe me they will check all this out, its easy to get money from somebody with a job, it will be taken right from your pay check, or they will freeze you bank account and take it from there,

if all else fails they will take your possessions,

if you received a letter it is a roll of the dice as to wether or not they will pursue you in court, so you need to decide if gambling is worth the risk,

if you receive a court summons you are done, they have a slam dunk case, no way out of it, minimum $10,000

if i received a letter (which i won't) the gamble to me would not be worth the risk, i would pay it, i have a good job and many valuable possessions, i wouldn't want something like this on my credit record and screwing up my life for many years to come, you could lose your job over this if your employer found out,

thats just my 2 cents and everybody needs to make their own decisions, but i would recommend seeking legal advice, nobody should go at this and face DN lawyers on their own,

[ChillyWilly]

That's my intuition exactly. First you get a demand letter for 3.5k then if ignored you get a second for 5k and if ignored again you may or may not hear from them again. My only question is how do they pick the ones to take to court and how much investigating have they done before sending these letters? It seems like a roll of the dice and also what you have posted on these sites (as they have all that info). If, for instance you've changed your nic and your ISP has changed and given you a different IP can they still hold what you posted using the old nic come back to haunt you? So many questions and so few answers....


Changing nic and ip won't help you. They've got your old nic tied to pm's tied to your palpal account..........you're screwed!

[sodusme]

Wait a minute though
you do realize when you guys changed your nicks a search on the new nick's posts revealed your original nick right?

If you were on here say with the nick abcman and the i.p. of 123.123.123.123 and you dealt with Wuf through PM's and forum posts and then decided to dump that nick and start using defman with a new i.p. of 456.456.456.456 how would they search for forum posts and link those two nicks together? I have some "privileges" at another site that allows me to do a nick search or an i.p. search through the CPanel and the only way I can think this would work is if the forum is running A/E software but even then that is not a given. If the user cleared out his cookies and then never made a reference to that old nick as being his with a post under his new nick there would be no way to tie those together. Forum posts alone won't tie nicks together on these VB forums you have to do an i.p. or a nick search and then only if they are running A/E software to be able to hit on the cookie can they be tied together.

They would have only had the same access that Wuf had through his access on the CPANEL so was he able to even do those types of searches on nicks and i.p.'s?

[dishuser]

Wait a minute though

If you were on here say with the nick abcman and the i.p. of 123.123.123.123 and you dealt with Wuf through PM's and forum posts and then decided to dump that nick and start using defman with a new i.p. of 456.456.456.456 how would they search for forum posts and link those two nicks together? I have some "privileges" at another site that allows me to do a nick search or an i.p. search through the CPanel and the only way I can think this would work is if the forum is running A/E software but even then that is not a given. If the user cleared out his cookies and then never made a reference to that old nick as being his with a post under his new nick there would be no way to tie those together. Forum posts alone won't tie nicks together on these VB forums you have to do an i.p. or a nick search and then only if they are running A/E software to be able to hit on the cookie can they be tied together.

They would have only had the same access that Wuf had through his access on the CPANEL so was he able to even do those types of searches on nicks and i.p.'s?
I'm referring to the staff who changed their usernames
members had to rejoin
if staff were smart they would have done the same ;)

[Just_angel]

I'm referring to the staff who changed their usernames
members had to rejoin
if staff were smart they would have done the same ;)

if the staff member had no connections with wuf... then there is no need to change usernames

but yes your correct just changing names doesn't mask who you really are

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

the signal in no way by way of IKS is being stolen, count out theft the people are paying for service, the circumvention of the keys are where GS2 ?

the only circumvention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Well sure its being stolen. You have to pay the provider to receive them. If you don't than your stealing them. The circumvention occurs when the person takes a receiver loaded with piracy software that circumvents the technology to protect the copyrighted programming.


Seriously if you think IKS is legal than your not looking at this objectively.



GS2

[kboom]

Really what's the point of this thread anymore. All it's turned into is a he said she said argument. Every time someone get's a new letter are we going to start it all over again? Isn't really time to give it a rest? JMHO

[sodusme]

Really what's the point of this thread anymore. All it's turned into is a he said she said argument. Every time someone get's a new letter are we going to start it all over again? Isn't really time to give it a rest? JMHO

I don't think its really regressed into an argument. To me its just bouncing opinions off each other. I know I haven't taken offense to any of it and I would hope no one has taken offense to anything I've offered up.

If even a sliver of what we have discussed in this thread comes to fruition and helps anyone down the road then its a well intentioned thread IMO. Who knows maybe someone will recite some of this to an attorney and he will say "Hey that's not a bad angle" and then pursue it. You never know.

[kboom]

I don't think its really regressed into an argument. To me its just bouncing opinions off each other. I know I haven't taken offense to any of it and I would hope no one has taken offense to anything I've offered up.

If even a sliver of what we have discussed in this thread comes to fruition and helps anyone down the road then its a well intentioned thread IMO. Who knows maybe someone will recite some of this to an attorney and he will say "Hey that's not a bad angle" and then pursue it. You never know.

Then in that regard would have to agree with you. Guess you never know. But at least we all should try and keep it to that level.

[surfinisfun]

Really what's the point of this thread anymore. All it's turned into is a he said she said argument. Every time someone get's a new letter are we going to start it all over again? Isn't really time to give it a rest? JMHO

To be honest, its all he said he said......unless nag/dn is going to post here.

Yea, we are just chatting.

Although, i'm sure our friends are looking in from time to time. ;)

[stilled]

Well sure its being stolen. You have to pay the provider to receive them. If you don't than your stealing them. The circumvention occurs when the person takes a receiver loaded with piracy software that circumvents the technology to protect the copyrighted programming.


Seriously if you think IKS is legal than your not looking at this objectively.



GS2

Thats a different burden of proof, IMO,

[b33r_hunter]

Thats a different burden of proof, IMO,

nice post goose, i mean boozman, damn, i mean sellout.. ah hell... perhaps your email account was h4x0r3d here too lol

heh

[Just_angel]

nice post goose, i mean boozman, damn, i mean sellout.. ah hell... perhaps your email account was h4x0r3d here too lol

heh


Hey its been awhile how are things?

lol sorry for the hijack !!!

[dishuser]

Hey its been awhile how are things?

lol sorry for the hijack !!!

his liver is in better shape than mine but not by much...lol

[Condor]

I'm referring to the staff who changed their usernames
members had to rejoin
if staff were smart they would have done the same ;)
Condor, Bolivia, Titicaca, El frito bandido, Who am I????????????...http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Ti42/Smilies/lmao.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Ti42/media/Smilies/lmao.gif.html)

[Just_angel]

his liver is in better shape than mine but not by much...lol

Thanks for sharing Baby !!! LMAO

[Just_angel]

Condor, Bolivia, Titicaca, El frito bandido, Who am I????????????...http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Ti42/Smilies/lmao.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Ti42/media/Smilies/lmao.gif.html)


l know !!! l know !!!!

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

Thats a different burden of proof, IMO,


The proof of burden is by the preponderance of the evidence.



GS2

[sodusme]

The proof of burden is by the preponderance of the evidence.



GS2

I think he's eluding to the same thing I am saying in that you are being sued for "using codes" not "using a receiver". I also know what you are saying in that their "preponderance" of the evidence has to tie those two together but IMO, and I've said it time and time and time again its a long stretch from buying some codes to actually tuning a receiver to a DN station and pirating it.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I think he's eluding to the same thing I am saying in that you are being sued for "using codes" not "using a receiver". I also know what you are saying in that their "preponderance" of the evidence has to tie those two together but IMO, and I've said it time and time and time again its a long stretch from buying some codes to actually tuning a receiver to a DN station and pirating it.


They allege you used a receiver. I think your missing that people just don't spend money on codes that have one purpose only and that is to access the signals unlawfully. I don't see a long stretch with preponderance of evidence but that is my opinion only.




26.) To access the IKS server, Defendant used a pirate satellite receiver loaded with piracy software, which is a software device designed to circumvent the technological measures used to protect access to copyright television programming. Each time Defendant tuned his pirate satellite receiver to a scrambled DISH Network television channel, the pirate satellite receiver would access the Nfusion Private Server pirate television service and IKS server to request the descrambling control word for that particular channel, the IKS server would return the control word, and Defendant would descramble the encrypted signal and view the television programming without authorization.




GS2

[ChillyWilly]

I see the web lawyers are still at it.....lol

IMHO, judges rely on a lot of common sense, demeanor of the witnesses, or simply put, what does or doesn't make sense.

to that end, most judges aren't going to believe someone made a donation to "achieve world peace", "save the whales", "save the planet" or whatever other explanation is offered.............but jmo

[sodusme]

OK but here is my take on it and why its such a stretch: They send out a demand letter demanding payment for wrongdoing from purchasing these codes. Now if you read that demand letter (and we all...

[Grave Digger]

OK but here is my take on it and why its such a stretch: They send out a demand letter demanding payment for wrongdoing from purchasing these codes. Now if you read that demand letter (and we all have) point out to me where in the demand letter they state anything about using a receiver?

sod, quit giving people poor advice, nobody is going to walk into a court room and beat DN lawyers on their own, that is just not going to happen, no way no how,

i would just love to see you walk into a court room against DN high payed lawyers and say "im sorry your honor, but i dont even own an fta receiver, and have never used one",

are you kidding? the judge would laugh at you, and be little you, in front of everybody,

the only good advice is to seek professional legal advice, which is not offered on this forum,

[sodusme]

sod, quit giving people poor advice, nobody is going to walk into a court room and beat DN lawyers on their own, that is just not going to happen, no way no how,

i would just love to see you walk into a court room against DN high payed lawyers and say "im sorry your honor, but i dont even own an fta receiver, and have never used one",

are you kidding? the judge would laugh at you, and be little you, in front of everybody,

the only good advice is to seek professional legal advice, which is not offered on this forum,

Its an opinion not advice.

You can keep preaching this pay, pay, pay and I'll keep preaching that DN attorneys are NOT Gods. They are simple attorneys nothing more. I'm not going anywhere, I'm not changing my opinion, and I'm not going to "stop posting" anything. I am entitled to my opinion in this thread just as much as you.

So until which time your name is on the registrar or you admin the board you can kindly shut the hell up and not worry about what I'm posting!!!!!

[Anubis]

Ok sod. Easy on the language and the tone. Thanks.

[sodusme]

Ok sod. Easy on the language and the tone. Thanks.

While I respect your say on the site its a two way street IMO.

If this guy is going to be allowed to conduct himself in this manner and constantly talk down to me and try to belittle (proper spelling btw Grave Digger) me then I'll assume its a "free for all". Like I said no disrespect meant against you or the site but I won't continue being talked to like a child by this guy. So either it gets handled here and now or I'll deal with it. ;)

[Anubis]

While I respect your say on the site its a two way street IMO.

If this guy is going to be allowed to conduct himself in this manner and constantly talk down to me and try to belittle (proper spelling btw Grave Digger) me then I'll assume its a "free for all". Like I said no disrespect meant against you or the site but I won't continue being talked to like a child by this guy. So either it gets handled here and now or I'll deal with it. ;)
I understand your point sod but as you know taking stuff out in public using foul language does contravene site rules. At least take it to pm before the latter.;)

[Just_angel]

play nice in the sandbox....please tone it down alittle

Thanks :liang:

[sodusme]

I understand your point sod but as you know taking stuff out in public using foul language does contravene site rules. At least take it to pm before the latter.;)


play nice in the sandbox....please tone it down alittle

Thanks :liang:

I would gladly do that but in turn I will expect that these types of posts:


sod, i am saying this with all due respect, but quit your damn speculating and assumptions,

you have no idea if he used encryption or not, so stop assuming he did not,

they could break any encryption he was using, however chances are he gave up all this info willingly, so an encryption wouldn't matter a damn anyway


sod, quit giving people poor advice, nobody is going to walk into a court room and beat DN lawyers on their own, that is just not going to happen, no way no how,

i would just love to see you walk into a court room against DN high payed lawyers and say "im sorry your honor, but i dont even own an fta receiver, and have never used one",

are you kidding? the judge would laugh at you, and be little you, in front of everybody,

the only good advice is to seek professional legal advice, which is not offered on this forum,

will cease and desist.

GS2 and myself disagree on this topic and have had many, many pages of back and forth. But it was just that back and forth and hasn't and I'm sure will not regress to GS2 talking down to me nor me talking down to him.

So I have to ask why does this guy keep getting obvious special treatment to talk as he likes in this thread? He is disrespectful, arrogant, and has a condescending tone when referring to me on this board. I am a very nice guy (usually) but don't p*ss me off and this guy has went waaaaaaay beyond that. That is why I'm asking that the site deal with it and demand that he tone it down or I will deal with it.

[Just_angel]

I would gladly do that but in turn I will expect that these types of posts:





will cease and desist.

GS2 and myself disagree on this topic and have had many, many pages of back and forth. But it was just that back and forth and hasn't and I'm sure will not regress to GS2 talking down to me nor me talking down to him.

So I have to ask why does this guy keep getting obvious special treatment to talk as he likes in this thread? He is disrespectful, arrogant, and has a condescending tone when referring to me on this board. I am a very nice guy (usually) but don't p*ss me off and this guy has went waaaaaaay beyond that. That is why I'm asking that the site deal with it and demand that he tone it down or I will deal with it.


ok i'll deal with him , just be patient with me :)

[sodusme]

ok i'll deal with him , just be patient with me :)

Thank you that is all I ask. :)

[Just_angel]

Grave Digger

last and only warning ...knock it off when posting here learn to be respectful to all

or you'll find me showing you the door no questions asked

thanks ...now back to relaxing :)

[Recove52]

letters are going out the how and where they gather there info is irrellevent...and it is possible to show thru various means that an IP Addy {enduser} has connected to another IP Addy [server] NFPS or otherwise.even thru a proxy as Sod as a specialist in pc secuity can tell you..

[Anubis]

Grave Digger

last and only warning ...knock it off when posting here learn to be respectful to all

or you'll find me showing you the door no questions asked

thanks ...now back to relaxing :)

I just love your "commercial breaks". :tehe:

[BPG]

don't p*ss me off and this guy has went waaaaaaay beyond that. That is why I'm asking that the site deal with it and demand that he tone it down or I will deal with it.

you know that I have Mad respect for you bud, but some times we need to step back and hit the "report" button and let the staff handle things....and yeah, sometimes you have to speak your mind, but when you see it going from bad to worse, let staff handle it man....

that's why Just_Angel gets the private shower in the Green room..... I miss that 2 way mirror, Umm... I mean room....lol ;)

BPG~

[Anubis]

you know that I have Mad respect for you bud, but some times we need to step back and hit the "report" button and let the staff handle things....and yeah, sometimes you have to speak your mind, but when you see it going from bad to worse, let staff handle it man....

that's why Just_Angel gets the private shower in the Green room..... I miss that 2 way mirror, Umm... I mean room....lol ;)

BPG~

It's ok, it still gets use! ;)

[bkr™]

that's why Just_Angel gets the private shower in the Green room..... I miss that 2 way mirror, Umm... I mean room....lol ;)

BPG~

Private showers, dang we are lucky if the shower faucet even works (them darn wannabe plumbers)...and 2 way mirror, was supposed to be in ladies lounge:innocent:

[sodusme]

you know that I have Mad respect for you bud, but some times we need to step back and hit the "report" button and let the staff handle things....and yeah, sometimes you have to speak your mind, but when you see it going from bad to worse, let staff handle it man....

that's why Just_Angel gets the private shower in the Green room..... I miss that 2 way mirror, Umm... I mean room....lol ;)

BPG~

Thanks Bob and its kind of hard since I'm on staff (FTA and other boards) myself. I sometimes forget the "report" button and simply shoot off the cuff as if I'm running the show and that is not the case. I'm getting better, but still slip up from time to time. I guess I just kind of wondered why nobody saw it before I did?

But its been handled and all is good now. ;)

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

They don't have to its just a demand letter. You can choose to ignore it. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
They stated what they had to in the demand letter. Best demand letters are short to the point. A demand letter...

[sodusme]

They don't have to its just a demand letter. You can choose to ignore it.






They stated what they had to in the demand letter. Best demand letters are short to the point. A demand letter does not include the complaint, evidence, exhibits Etc.


If you become a Plaintiff in a lawsuit you'll come to appreciate preponderance of the evidence and it won't seem like a crock to you than. It will seem like a crock if you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. I am currently a plaintiff in three cases, two small claims and one that is at the demand letter stage that will not be small claims. If I had to prove what your suggesting might as well fold up along with thousands or millions of others. One of my complaints alleges fraud but it would probably not amount to criminal fraud because of needing to prove it was intentional fraud and planned from the get go. They didn't prove OJ was guilty but luckily in Civil they were able to prove he was responsible and liable for wrongful death. Zimmerman could still be held responsible for wrongful death in a Civil court. I believe the court system has it right.






You have been very civil with no talking down and it would not happen coming from me to you unless I was responding in kind. You have brought up some good points. I am not trying to be negative but I know a court will look at both sides and while we don't want to think their side could be right but its want a court will think and do. I learned that the hard way years ago because I just did not see the court looking at any other way than I thought it should. I had to be right and the other side was full of crap but I realized after I was not neutral and never considered the other side's point while the court did.




GS2

Yes I have been involved in only one criminal proceeding and several "traffic" cases and to be honest the way those turned out soured me on the whole judicial system. I'll tell a quick story about one of the traffic cases and you will come to realize why I'm so sour on the entire system and why I think its fraught with corruption: I had gotten a speeding ticket in my early 20's and had 10 points out of 12 allowed and would lose my license. I hired an attorney who picked up the case for a few hundred dollars to save my license. Fresh out of the magistrates chambers the attorney tells me that the cop asked him "Are you and the defendant related"? The attorney replied "No I'm on retainer why"? The cop then replied "OH OK I don't feel so bad accepting a plea deal then knowing that he had to pay for you too". So in retrospect this cop is saying "I don't care who you are spending your money to as long as its going into the system".

This is why I have no use for the judicial system in the U.S. and realize that it is rife with corruption, bias, and outright thievery.

[kyzursozay]

Yes I have been involved in only one criminal proceeding and several "traffic" cases and to be honest the way those turned out soured me on the whole judicial system. I'll tell a quick story about one of the traffic cases and you will come to realize why I'm so sour on the entire system and why I think its fraught with corruption: I had gotten a speeding ticket in my early 20's and had 10 points out of 12 allowed and would lose my license. I hired an attorney who picked up the case for a few hundred dollars to save my license. Fresh out of the magistrates chambers the attorney tells me that the cop asked him "Are you and the defendant related"? The attorney replied "No I'm on retainer why"? The cop then replied "OH OK I don't feel so bad accepting a plea deal then knowing that he had to pay for you too". So in retrospect this cop is saying "I don't care who you are spending your money to as long as its going into the system".

This is why I have no use for the judicial system in the U.S. and realize that it is rife with corruption, bias, and outright thievery.
Ahh speeding tickets ..... something that should probably have its own thread and how to properly & effectively deal without having to resort to hiring an attorney to do so. Over the years I myself have been able to dispose of 5 speeding tickets of 10 mph or more over the limit , accruing no points, minimal fine, court fee for defective equipment. All that was required was a notarized speedometer calibration (usually just disconnected speedometer cable on older vehicles, now even easier disconnecting speedo sensor) then a made up receipt for repair. Have done this for 3 friends also, All were successful. Most notable was one issued by a state trooper many, many yrs ago for 90mph in 65mph. I really was nervous until the judge dismissed the guy's ticket right before me by the same trooper. When the judge asked if he was guilty of the offence (speeding). In halting english he replied "yes, BUT I want to know why the trooper say I should go back to my own country". The judge lookjng at the trooper incredously, half smiling asked "did you say that". As the trooper replied "I might of said words of similar effect". The judge hardly waited for him to finish, apologising to defendant, dismissed ticket, no
fine, no court fee. Mine was processed almost as fast. I'll never forget turning, walking out of courtroom virtually every eye in court was focused on me like a laserbeam. With age comes wisdom usually lol or at least a slowing of the testosterone & need for speed. A lot less cops on the roads these days too.

[TNF]

not the best example but i do agree with the point youre trying to make...the whole point of this scheme (extortion letters) is that dn/nag is able to enforce this complaint in CIVIL court b/c of the...

[kboom]

Really agree with a lot that has been said regarding this letter. However people being people I would bet that 99% percent of the folks that have gotten this letter have compromised themselves by posting on the boards. It would be nice for a 1 per center that had the bucks and actually went to court and win. But that too I don't see happening.

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

not the best example but i do agree with the point youre trying to make...the whole point of this scheme (extortion letters) is that dn/nag is able to enforce this complaint in CIVIL court b/c of the slim chances they would have in CRIMINAL courts, period

there are a lot of holes with these letters BUT not one peep who got one of these has paid for a PROFESSIONAL lawyer to take this crap on and i mean HEAD ON and make a mockery of what this whole shiate (letters) is...until THAT happens? dn will continue to force this donation/code issue down the enduser's throat via the corrupt (civil) court system...this is true in both sides of the border, HOWEVER, i know for a fact if anyone went in there and screamed "CHERRY PICKING" and forced DN/NAG to PROVE what they are CLAIMING? they would be done like a splattered snake on Arizona back roads...man i wish i was a lawyer cuz THAT would be my NEW mission...yeah i would prob lose a few before i hit it big, but i would HIT IT HUGE once i got the legal wrangling down ;)


What holes do you see in the demand letter. ? I think this whole issue of the demand letter is overblown because it really has nothing to do with any of the legal issues that would be argued in court. I don't see any defense based on the demand letter being this or that.


I also believe some have contacted professional lawyers for advice and maybe take it on. A real good lawyer will be honest with you about your chances and the costs to defend. He could say I'll take it on for you but I have to warn you about this and that, do you want to move forward. Other lawyers might be oh so happy to take this on you for as long as they see the green bucks.


So far I have seen that they have proof of the business records of your purchase of subscription plus I saw pics of some panels posted even know I don't fully understand that plus a support affidavit from Wulfman which all count towards possibly proving their claim. I do see that unfortunately as somewhat strong evidence. I don't a splattered snake serniro, maybe a close battle to irked out a possible win if your clean with no incriminating posts, not having owned a receiver but certainly no cake walk.




GS2

[dishtrasher]

After reading some of the judges arguments for entering default judgements, there is some space to fight back. The only evidence they have shown of using codes are private messages and incriminating posts under a nickname in a forum, but that evidence are in default judgements so nobody have argued against that. They don't even know what box you have if any. They have not shown ip, isp or server records.

Wuf declaration only states that he resold codes for iks servers, codes that were shutdown by nfps for being stolen codes, but he has no control of the server. That declaration doesn't stand a cross questioning in court.

Yesterday DN filed 4 more lawsuits. The best advise a lawyer can give you is to pay the $3500. Going to trial is going to cost much more in legal representation. Nobody have went to trial, most cases entered default with two or three fighting in early stages and ending in dismissals after negotiating.

You can't go one on one with them, they have the attorneys and the money, the only way to go is joining forces with others in the same situation to share expenses and strategy.

They can't prove you have a box, of course if you receive a letter take all boxes, cables, antennas, etc. out of your house.
They can't prove you have actually used the codes, none of those codes are working, they have either expired or canceled.
They don't know what you have done with the code, when or how you have used it, what channels you have viewed, they only have wuf declaration of selling a code.

They use forum posts as evidence against you, use forum posts as evidence against them. nfps is most of the time down, when isn't a ecm, servers down, codes not working, boxes not connecting, ports changing, etc. Go to the forums from beta to zeta and there is your evidence that codes don't work,won't connect, were canceled.

Today's server status show as freezing/limited. Thousands of down, freezing, can't connect, not working, etc. posts across dozens of forums. You were scammed by wuf and you can prove that with the same evidence they use. They have posted the stolen non working codes, all wuf codes are on that list. They have forum posts against you, you have forum posts of codes not working.

19313

[dishuser]

where did you see that wuf sold stolen codes?

[surfinisfun]

Stolen codes, man thats funny.

To dn they're all stolen codes and if they worked and they have proof you bought them ect.....then wuf gave up everything but his first born, you're kind of sol.

[dishtrasher]

The file stolen donations.pdf list more than 22,000 stolen codes. That file was posted at the announcements section at zeta. Most of wuf codes are in that list.

[surfinisfun]

The file stolen donations.pdf list more than 22,000 stolen codes. That file was posted at the announcements section at zeta. Most of wuf codes are in that list.

I don't see how that makes a damn bit of difference in the courts eyes......why? cause it wouldn't.

[dishtrasher]

wuf says you bought a code to access nfps, that declaration have the same value to the court as any other declaration.

they file as evidence of code use private messages and forum posts

forums posts by nfps admins list your code as stolen and cancelled

forum post vs forum post, forum post from a reseller vs forum post from nfps admins, is up to the court to decide

when the only evidence is wuf declaration and a forum post, you have some space to fight back in the same grounds

[dishuser]

The file stolen donations.pdf list more than 22,000 stolen codes. That file was posted at the announcements section at zeta. Most of wuf codes are in that list.
strange i don't see his name there

[dishtrasher]

Anyone with a wuf code from 2012 will find the code number on that list. He declared that he sold 3,200 nfps codes from november 2010 to july 2012, there isn't listed all 3,200 codes, only the ones discovered on february 2013

[dishuser]

Anyone with a wuf code from 2012 will find the code number on that list.
even if that's true do you think the judge will accept what a thief says?lol

[dishtrasher]

wuf is no thief, he is a honorable gentleman that infiltrated nfps to take it down

wuf is a thief, profiting from iks code sales scam, once being caught by dn hands off information to save his a**

if a thief declaration is unacceptable, then dn has no evidence

all the lawsuit is based on wuf declaration, any good lawyer can destroy that in a minute

if that declaration is enough evidence, why is dn searching for evidence of actual code use?

[dishuser]

wuf is no thief, he is a honorable gentleman that infiltrated nfps to take it down

wuf is a thief, profiting from iks code sales scam, once being caught by dn hands off information to save his a**

if a thief declaration is unacceptable, then dn has no evidence

all the lawsuit is based on wuf declaration, any good lawyer can destroy that in a minute

if that declaration is enough evidence, why is dn searching for evidence of actual code use?where did I say wuf was the thief?
try again

[dishtrasher]

you don't, I do

even if that's true do you think the judge will accept what a thief says?

your thief declaration vs my thief declaration

we can argue for years without knowing if someone have reason, because nobody is contending wuf declaration in court

my opinion after reading dozen of court documents from endusers lawsuits is that there is space to fight back and win, but that is going to cost

[torpainter]

If you call an employee selling codes without the owners knowing then i can guess you can say they were stolen...lol

[dishuser]

If you call an employee selling codes without the owners knowing then i can guess you can say they were stolen...lol
and the employer is a thief ;)

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

wuf says you bought a code to access nfps, that declaration have the same value to the court as any other declaration.

they file as evidence of code use private messages and forum posts

forums posts by nfps admins list your code as stolen and cancelled

forum post vs forum post, forum post from a reseller vs forum post from nfps admins, is up to the court to decide

when the only evidence is wuf declaration and a forum post, you have some space to fight back in the same grounds




We do not know what evidence they may or may not have nor what they may or may not get. Providers have a habit of surprising you like when we found out they spoke to neighbors of defendants in some other past cases to get evidence against them. They may not have anything else but I would not rule that out. When and if someone decides to push the issue in court is when they will try to gather evidence against you. There is no reason to do that now. Rushing out to get rid of your satellite dish & receiver is one thing but you better make sure all your neighbors will lie and say you saw one on your roof.




They can't prove you have a box, of course if you receive a letter take all boxes, cables, antennas, etc. out of your house.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

wuf is no thief, he is a honorable gentleman that infiltrated nfps to take it down

wuf is a thief, profiting from iks code sales scam, once being caught by dn hands off information to save his a**

if a thief declaration is unacceptable, then dn has no evidence

all the lawsuit is based on wuf declaration, any good lawyer can destroy that in a minute

if that declaration is enough evidence, why is dn searching for evidence of actual code use?



Not sure what your saying but wulfman has business records of the purchases the defendants bought. Are you saying they are fake ? are you saying wulfman was not in that business. ?

What exactly is the good lawyer going to destroy. ? where did you come up with that DN is searching for the evidence of the actual code used ? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but just wondering where you get that from.



GS2

[sodusme]

I get what dishtrasher is saying here concerning the big picture. Also thank you for taking the time to read through these I just don't have the patience for that.

They are presenting a declaration from a known thief that being Wuf. We can call him a thief since that is obvious that he facilitated a business to steal DN programming. So if his "declaration" of what he sold you, how it worked, his involvement, your involvement and so forth is good enough from a known thief, then why wouldn't forum posts on a forum from others that are viewed as a "thief" declaring that NFPS is down namely pirate forum admins be viewed as just as good? In other words he's saying that any good attorney would tear that declaration apart as it was written by a thief trying to save his own *ss. One thief vs another thief.

Also I highly doubt they are getting ISP records. You have to remember there exists no set time for an ISP to keep records of a users activity online. Some ISP's only hold that information for 30 days. And yes I'm aware of the NSA's spying but they don't really have all your ISP records dating back to when Jesus was a baby. That's a falsehood. Not to mention the NSA is not going to be called in on something like this.

[dishtrasher]

We only know the actual evidence filed in court, that's wuf and Rogers declaration.

wuf declaration: I sold via paypal a code to the defendant to access a iks server

Because there is no wrong doing sending money for wathever reason to wuf, including purchasing a iks server access code, they need Rogers declaration.

The lawsuit is about interception and circumventing dish signal. Buying a code is one step but not definitive proof of the actual interception and circumvention take place.

Rogers, private investigator hired by dn lawyers, so any private investigator can question his declaration, declared: that he read private messages and posts under a nickname in a forum, and in that messages and post some says: received codes, codes working, codes not working (yes, one of the messages used as proof of using a code is that the code don't work), etc.

where did you come up with that DN is searching for the evidence of the actual code used ? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but just wondering where you get that from.

court documents

Because those two declarations aren't contested in court for entering a default judgement, the court take both as true

[TNF]

We do not know what evidence they may or may not have nor what they may or may not get. Providers have a habit of surprising you like when we found out they spoke to neighbors of defendants in some other past cases to get evidence against them. They may not have anything else but I would not rule that out. When and if someone decides to push the issue in court is when they will try to gather evidence against you. There is no reason to do that now. Rushing out to get rid of your satellite dish & receiver is one thing but you better make sure all your neighbors will lie and say you saw one on your roof.
GS2

all that info (so-called evidence) is supposed to be disclosed during "Pretrial Discovery" ...ill save the typing and c/p for some of you that are so interested...read carefully twice if you have to...DN would be screwed if it were ME defending myself against these cockamamy demand letters ;)

hXXp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit

[TNF]

What holes do you see in the demand letter. ? I think this whole issue of the demand letter is overblown because it really has nothing to do with any of the legal issues that would be argued in court. I don't see any defense based on the demand letter being this or that.


I also believe some have contacted professional lawyers for advice and maybe take it on. A real good lawyer will be honest with you about your chances and the costs to defend. He could say I'll take it on for you but I have to warn you about this and that, do you want to move forward. Other lawyers might be oh so happy to take this on you for as long as they see the green bucks.


So far I have seen that they have proof of the business records of your purchase of subscription plus I saw pics of some panels posted even know I don't fully understand that plus a support affidavit from Wulfman which all count towards possibly proving their claim. I do see that unfortunately as somewhat strong evidence. I don't a splattered snake serniro, maybe a close battle to irked out a possible win if your clean with no incriminating posts, not having owned a receiver but certainly no cake walk.

GS2


thats my point..the LEGAL issues are more towards CRIMINAL and the sad part about it all, is, IF it (this crock) were fought in CRIMINAL courts? the dots would have to be connected or it would be dismissed faster than it was filed - trust me on that...the so-called lower threshold in CIVIL is what DN is getting away with in their argument(s)...the letter of complaint goes in 2 directions all without connecting all the dots ...if i buy a code to circumvent their sig they have to PROVE all the steps necessary to have watched their decrypted signals..THEY CANT..so the arguments made in a civil court are that i bought the code THAT is ALL they have

i could have bough it (code/don) but i had NOT realized that the IRD and/or dongle i bought were DOA (cuz im DUMB that way like many fools who get taken in) so even when trying to load the code along with all other SW needed i came to realize i was SOL and NEVER did connect to NFPS servers meaning my don was a DUD..OH WAIT, they have my ISP records to prove THAT wrong, right?? pffft

like many have stated, connect the dots, ((other than what you have - the records i bought a freaking CODE)) confiscate my hardware produce the ISP records, confiscate the servers and show me all this evidence during "pre-trial disclosure" and THEN mayby THEN ill fork over some cash and EVEN then ID argue to the judge that the amount sought is OVER INFLATED...its all a crock ---they cant locate and seize those iks servers (they for so long have offered a reward for) so, this...laughable


btw - didnt wuf one time post Back in late '11 early '12 here at satfix he needed $$$ for a family member and sent out codes in liew of donations made for that sick family member?? ...i bought a code off his asss at beta in early '12 good luck nag i have dozens of nics on all FTA boards and use fake info for all my purchases not to mention my ISP changes my IP every 6 months LOL, idiots ... oh and, need i repeat CHERRY PICKING?? if they had alllll the goods on all buyers?? there would be thousands and thousands of these trumped up letters not only for connecting to NFPS either --- ill wager the house they wouldnt dare send one of these letters to an already subscriber of their service...lest we forget, many who are in this hobby are subbing to their crap already (at the same time) ---they stand losing much more than the pennies they would get outa of any judgement...this will go away, eventually, all the while some of these letters falling on some poor enduser THAT is the shame of it all...i wish i could defend those...i have noticed they are going after those who dont have english as a second language, gee i wonder why?? just an observation ;)

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

I get what dishtrasher is saying here concerning the big picture. Also thank you for taking the time to read through these I just don't have the patience for that.

They are presenting a declaration from a known thief that being Wuf. We can call him a thief since that is obvious that he facilitated a business to steal DN programming. So if his "declaration" of what he sold you, how it worked, his involvement, your involvement and so forth is good enough from a known thief, then why wouldn't forum posts on a forum from others that are viewed as a "thief" declaring that NFPS is down namely pirate forum admins be viewed as just as good? In other words he's saying that any good attorney would tear that declaration apart as it was written by a thief trying to save his own *ss. One thief vs another thief.

Also I highly doubt they are getting ISP records. You have to remember there exists no set time for an ISP to keep records of a users activity online. Some ISP's only hold that information for 30 days. And yes I'm aware of the NSA's spying but they don't really have all your ISP records dating back to when Jesus was a baby. That's a falsehood. Not to mention the NSA is not going to be called in on something like this.



But what is there to tear apart ? his business records ? the type of business he ran ? the panels posted ? the PMs sent and received by him from others.


I see his declaration as damaging.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

We only know the actual evidence filed in court, that's wuf and Rogers declaration.

wuf declaration: I sold via paypal a code to the defendant to access a iks server

Because there is no wrong doing sending money for wathever reason to wuf, including purchasing a iks server access code, they need Rogers declaration.

The lawsuit is about interception and circumventing dish signal. Buying a code is one step but not definitive proof of the actual interception and circumvention take place.

Rogers, private investigator hired by dn lawyers, so any private investigator can question his declaration, declared: that he read private messages and posts under a nickname in a forum, and in that messages and post some says: received codes, codes working, codes not working (yes, one of the messages used as proof of using a code is that the code don't work), etc.

where did you come up with that DN is searching for the evidence of the actual code used ? Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but just wondering where you get that from.

court documents

Because those two declarations aren't contested in court for entering a default judgement, the court take both as true



At this point the evidence or some of it has not been filled in court. That would happen with exhibits before trial if it goes there.


I think your missing the requirement for proof in a civil case. Its the lowest bar. What makes more sense.



GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

thats my point..the LEGAL issues are more towards CRIMINAL and the sad part about it all, is, IF it (this crock) were fought in CRIMINAL courts? the dots would have to be connected or it would be dismissed faster than it was filed - trust me on that...the so-called lower threshold in CIVIL is what DN is getting away with in their argument(s)...the letter of complaint goes in 2 directions all without connecting all the dots ...if i buy a code to circumvent their sig they have to PROVE all the steps necessary to have watched their decrypted signals..THEY CANT..so the arguments made in a civil court are that i bought the code THAT is ALL they have

i could have bough it (code/don) but i had NOT realized that the IRD and/or dongle i bought were DOA (cuz im DUMB that way like many fools who get taken in) so even when trying to load the code along with all other SW needed i came to realize i was SOL and NEVER did connect to NFPS servers meaning my don was a DUD..OH WAIT, they have my ISP records to prove THAT wrong, right?? pffft

like many have stated, connect the dots, ((other than what you have - the records i bought a freaking CODE)) confiscate my hardware produce the ISP records, confiscate the servers and show me all this evidence during "pre-trial disclosure" and THEN mayby THEN ill fork over some cash and EVEN then ID argue to the judge that the amount sought is OVER INFLATED...its all a crock ---they cant locate and seize those iks servers (they for so long have offered a reward for) so, this...laughable


btw - didnt wuf one time post Back in late '11 early '12 here at satfix he needed $$$ for a family member and sent out codes in liew of donations made for that sick family member?? ...i bought a code off his asss at beta in early '12 good luck nag i have dozens of nics on all FTA boards and use fake info for all my purchases not to mention my ISP changes my IP every 6 months LOL, idiots ... oh and, need i repeat CHERRY PICKING?? if they had alllll the goods on all buyers?? there would be thousands and thousands of these trumped up letters not only for connecting to NFPS either ;)


So you think they have to be in house house observing that your watching their decrypted signals ? Sorry but it just does not work that way in a civil action. The preponderance of the evidence will make that determination of what is more likely.




GS2

[Gunsmoke2 - GS2]

all that info (so-called evidence) is supposed to be disclosed during "Pretrial Discovery" ...ill save the typing and c/p for some of you that are so interested...read carefully twice if you have to...DN would be screwed if it were ME defending myself against these cockamamy demand letters ;)

hXXp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit


There hasn't been any discovery. That won't happen to much later. That is my point we don't know what evidence they may or may not have.



GS2

[TNF]

There hasn't been any discovery. That won't happen to much later. That is my point we don't know what evidence they may or may not have.

GS2

discovery is part of the full procedure and the right of the defendant in any of theses complaints, filed...the defendant has 30 days to ask for THAT meeting where alllll has to be disclosed...i would wager you dont even have to be a practicing lawyer to see through this crock at THAT meeting ..heck i would have cause for a cross complaint with the flimsy evidence they would produce at this meeting...this is what they bank on, a peep doesnt challenge their claim

btw - it is curious is it not? you are offering all this input and all ---especially with all varied opinions?? and so, hope you dont take offense in my asking? what purpose is it you have here what with all the claims YOU are involved with? is it NOT time consuming to spend time on something you have no horse in and be better spent on YOUR claims?...again, curious, cuz you seem to leave out the important procedural rules ( as offered in my previous post) these cases have for both parties when offering input??

[TNF]

So you think they have to be in house house observing that your watching their decrypted signals ? Sorry but it just does not work that way in a civil action. The preponderance of the evidence will make that determination of what is more likely.
GS2

well yah, if it were a "criminal" case...remember in that DA case? how they gathered their evidence? maybe you should study the way in which they were able to connect allll the dots in THAT/THOSE cases(s)...this case is just a backdoor way in without having all the evidence to secure a judgement, ESPECIALLY on end users without english, as a second language

[TNF]

here is the major point --- if dn/nag think, for one nano second, these tactics of going after end users, will kill IKS?? they are fooling themselves (and i highly doubt they think as much)...they DO realize some of us are smarter than some and this is just as was intended, scare tactic...they're good BUT not THAT good --- sorry nag/dn, you suck...as you continue to use these tactics peeps are becoming wiser on how to play this game...good luck though :)

[mclovin]

Why don't you just use a bulls-eye for a sig....... Good Luck :p


here is the major point --- if dn/nag think, for one nano second, these tactics of going after end users, will kill IKS?? they are fooling themselves (and i highly doubt they think as much)...they DO realize some of us are smarter than some and this is just as was intended, scare tactic...they're good BUT not THAT good --- sorry nag/dn, you suck...as you continue to use these tactics peeps are becoming wiser on how to play this game...good luck though :)

[jazzman]

Kind of a hi-jack here but I know it was mentioned somewhere in this thread and I was just curious. Has anyone paid the $59 to this "Gary Ruff" for his "Unauthorized Defense Lab" kit at his site "piratecardblues"? If so, did it contain any useful info and was it worth it? If someone can pay $59 to get the amount reduced or at least get the proper wording so DN can't come back on you after you paid then I would think it would save people a lot of grief and stress and would be worth it. Just throwing this out there...